Originally posted by HalitoseA fine example of the post hoc logical fallacy. God's knowing about an action does not infer his causing the action. How hard is this to grasp?
A fine example of the post hoc logical fallacy. God's knowing about an action does not infer his causing the action. How hard is this to grasp?
[b]...it might be my decision...[t]hus, I could not have free will.
Ahem. Cough! Could you explain how you sustain this obvious contradiction in your argument? Equivocation perhaps?[/b]
The implication is that God knew the action when he was creating the universe. When he created the universe, he created it with knowledge of the action. Thus, he created the action since the actions was contained in his creation.
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Originally posted by Conrau KIf God is unconstrained by time then it can be said that:
Prove to me that his being unconstrained has any affect on the discussion.
a) His 'awareness' exists as an unchanging constant 'above' all points of history and the future. If that future is 'out there' somewhere then, yes, we have no free will.
b) If that future doesn't exist 'out there' but is rather the sum of all possibilities for the next moment, then God 'knows' both that i will go to work tomorrow and that i'll stay at home and turn blue (or something). Which means that there is free will, but God's omniscience is absurd.
c) If God observes events occuring as we do, albiet with perfect of knowledge those events, then God is an entity who despite existing beyond our idea of duration and causality is limited in the mannor he can gather information by linear experiance (i.e. his 'foreknowledge' is informed guess work; he gains 'new' experiances, information etc.)
To summerise:
If God is unconstrained by time then either,
a) We have no free will,
b) God's 'knowledge' is largely erroneus and/or absurd.
or c) We are talking gobbledygook.
Originally posted by Conrau KYou can do the caveman routine of jumping up and down, repeating it over and over that God knew about an action therefore He caused, but that doesn't make it so. You have not yet demonstrated anything. Try again.
[b]A fine example of the post hoc logical fallacy. God's knowing about an action does not infer his causing the action. How hard is this to grasp?
The implication is that God knew the action when he was creating the universe. When he created the universe, he created it with knowledge of the action. Thus, he created the action since the actions was contained in his creation.[/b]
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Originally posted by Conrau KGroan. ðŸ˜
Prove to me that his being unconstrained has any affect on the discussion.
Have you purposely ignored the last 50 posts from knightmeister in this thread?!
To spell it out for you:
1) We live in a time-constrained environment where we experience events sequentially.
2) God is not time or spatially or time constrained and can view/experience all time-space restrained events in parallel, i.e. past, present, and future God experiences in the present.
3) Follows from 1) and 2) that God can experience the future of our time-space existence while we experience the present.
4) Follows from 3) that God's knowing about an action in future does not infer His causing it.
Try thinking out of the box -- it might help.
Originally posted by HalitoseSo let me ask. I can do this or that, right? Yet, God knows which one I am going to do? I'm not going to bother questioning this God-out-of-time concept. It requires to much bending of logic beyond credibility. But let me get this straight. God, not restricted by time, created the universe at the same time it ended. From what I read of knightmeister's posts, the two happen simultaneously.
Groan. ðŸ˜
Have you purposely ignored the last 50 posts from knightmeister in this thread?!
To spell it out for you:
1) We live in a time-constrained environment where we experience events sequentially.
2) God is not time or spatially or time constrained and can view/experience all time-space restrained events in parallel, i.e. past, present, and f ...[text shortened]... ction in future does not infer His causing it.
Try thinking out of the box -- it might help.
And anyway, actions must be determined since indeterminacy implies randomness.
Originally posted by HalitoseI have demonstrated alot. Please try refuting my argument. Calling something an ad hoc fallacy does not make you right.
You can do the caveman routine of jumping up and down, repeating it over and over that God knew about an action therefore He caused, but that doesn't make it so. You have not yet demonstrated anything. Try again.
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Originally posted by Conrau KI see. A change of tune? Argument from ignorance?
So let me ask. I can do this or that, right? Yet, God knows which one I am going to do? I'm not going to bother questioning this God-out-of-time concept. It requires to much bending of logic beyond credibility. But let me get this straight. God, not restricted by time, created the universe at the same time it ended. From what I read of knightmeister's posts ...[text shortened]... ltaneously.
And anyway, actions must be determined since indeterminacy implies randomness.