Originally posted by frogstompFrom the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
thank you.
here's a helpful site ( without the trojan)
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.php
Argument ad hominem:
Term of informal logic. Legitimate rhetorical technique by which an arguer persuades an opponent to accept a conclusion
by deriving it from premises which the opponent accepts even though the arguer does not. Also often used for the
(informal) fallacy of attempting to impugn an argument by denigrating one's opponent; or by arguing that an opponent's
views are false or flawed because there is some form of conflict between their circumstances or character traits and the
argument.
Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Version 1.0, London: Routledge
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Originally posted by NimzofishThis is a vague, woolly statement that you have yet to argue sufficiently. If you admit that God simply watching us from another eternal dimension hasn't caused the future to occur then what has? In order to have something PRE -determined then it has to be decided or set in stone BEFORE it happens. However, God does not PRE determine anything because he only knows AS it is happening (ie in the future and NOT before). He knows because he watches you making free choices in the future but there's no PREdiction or PREdetermination involved other than in your imagination.
Yes, just because God knows the future it doesn’t mean that God caused that future to occur, but it does mean that the future is somehow predetermined.
Think of a choice you have made in the past that you now know the outcome of. Because you know the outcome of that choice does it therefore mean that that choice was logically predetermined? If so why?
The confusion in your argument is that you assume that because God knows what we do in the future (his present) that it is inevitable. The key thing here is that it's not inevitable for us and it only becomes inevitable to him AFTER and NOT BEFORE it happens. You make the same mistake Conrau K makes in placing God in our time and not his. You know the outcome of World War two but does that logically mean it was inevitable or there could only have ever been one outcome? Of course , you are aware of the possibility of quite a few different outcomes , but you are aware of what happened (but it wasn't due to predetermination or inevitability but just timezones)
You imagine that God is with us in this present moment thinking "there's only one way this can possibly go and if you gave this a million goes it would still turn out the same way" but it's actually more like " I can see right now how this could go many different ways and you have lots of choices available to you , if you had a million opportunities there would be lots of outcomes but you can choose only once and I know which one you chose in the end."
In one sense you could say it is 'inevitable' to God and all laid out in front of him , but as long as it's not inevitable for US then we are still free.
A lot of you here are just saying God's omniscience 'implies' no free will or it 'somehow' predetermines things and then you think you have made a good point. Where's the back up argument though. Unless you can argue a causal link or why it predetermines things then you're not going anywhere.
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf God is completely outside of time, then that means from God's point of view, no event has the property of being before or after any other event, correct?
This is a vague, woolly statement that you have yet to argue sufficiently. If you admit that God simply watching us from another eternal dimension hasn't caused the future to occur then what has? In order to have something PRE -determined then it has to be decided or set in stone BEFORE it happens. However, God does not PRE determine anything because ...[text shortened]... a causal link or why it predetermines things then you're not going anywhere.
Originally posted by bbarrMaybe, maybe not. If I had to guess I would say that he can probably see time unfolding in front of him in a way similar to us except he would not look along the timeline but look sideways at it. Maybe it's a bit like looking at telescope from right to left rather than 'through' the telescope ,along it's length as it were
If God is completely outside of time, then that means from God's point of view, no event has the property of being before or after any other event, correct?
Originally posted by bbarrI don't see why you'd say that, God isn't limited as we are, it does
If God is completely outside of time, then that means from God's point of view, no event has the property of being before or after any other event, correct?
not mean that God doesn't understand before, now, and after.
It only means that we who operate in the 'now' can affect things
by our actions in only one place, the now. Those actions are ours
to do with what we will.
Time is something that God created, and He does things with us
in the now, and only during this moment can we make a choice.
Kelly
Originally posted by NimzofishThe tarot card analogy is interesting. It shows that your thinking is still timeline based rather than outside the timeline. To understand this whole thing you have to drop the idea of PREdiction and PREdetermined (I'm starting to get a bit bored of repeating myself on this one😴😴😴)
.
-Really? So if you knew what you would do, it would somehow make your choice (which you have already admitted to) free? You're in exactly the same boat as K: prove how knowledge infers causality.-
No, knowing doesn’t in itself cause the event to occur. Rather, knowing the future implies that we live in a predetermined universe. Imagine I have a taro ...[text shortened]... will, while in reality my future is predetermined and this can be confirmed by using the cards.
I
God does not PREdict but 'POSTdicts' if you like. He does not look forward THROUGH the timeline but more backwards or sideways at the future. You can only predict something if you live on a sequencial timeline . He knows what you did AFTER you did it but because of the peculiar properties of eternity he has that information across all time anyway. He's not correctly or incorrectly placing bets on what the outcome will be because he never places bets , just watches.And if you watch you can't get it wrong.
To use your tarot card idea. You are free to decide whether you go to church or not and whether you go or not makes absolutely no difference to God at all because he hasn't made any predictions , he doesn't need to! If you go he will watch that in the future if you don't he will watch that instead. He doesn't see what you're 'ARE GOING TO ' do , he justs sees what you 'ACTUALLY DID'. Tarot cards can get it wrong because they PREdict , God can never get it wrong because it's what you ACTUALLY did (anymore than you can get the outcome of WW II wrong).
How are you going to show that the outcome of WWII was predetermined? According to your logic it was all inevitable because I am privy to information (due to my advantageous position on the timeline compared to Neville Chamberlin) that those who lived before WWII didn't have. But if Germany had won then that would be my reality right now , so whatever happened , happened and me knowing this and Neville Chamberlin not knowing has no bearing on his freedom at the time he lived. At the time he was alive his future was not set it but nevertheless he did have to set it at some point in time because there can only be one timeline eventually.
I actually disagree with Kelly jay on the issue of predetermination . I think it just confuses things . This has nothing to do with causality and everything to do with dimensions of time.
If you asked God "what am I going to do tomorrow" he might say " I can't say what you are going to do tomorrow but I can tell you what you DID" Get the idea yet.? I know it's tough but keep working at it , it'll come.
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf he sees time unfolding in front of him, then he has mental states some of which preceed others, correct?
Maybe, maybe not. If I had to guess I would say that he can probably see time unfolding in front of him in a way similar to us except he would not look along the timeline but look sideways at it. Maybe it's a bit like looking at telescope from right to left rather than 'through' the telescope ,along it's length as it were
Originally posted by KellyJayThe question doesn't presuppose anything about God's limitations or understanding. This is a simple question about whether God experiences events as bearing the relationship of before or after other events.
I don't see why you'd say that, God isn't limited as we are, it does
not mean that God doesn't understand before, now, and after.
It only means that we who operate in the 'now' can affect things
by our actions in only one place, the now. Those actions are ours
to do with what we will.
Time is something that God created, and He does things with us
in the now, and only during this moment can we make a choice.
Kelly
Originally posted by knightmeisterNo, no trap, just curious how there can be temporal relations between events if those events occur outside of time (e.g., if they occur in the mind of God).
I would guess so. So tell me, what is the nature of this trap? Are you wondering if there might be something like 'eternal time'? If so , I have pondered this myself.
Originally posted by knightmeisterActually you're the one that has something that need to be proven.
This is a vague, woolly statement that you have yet to argue sufficiently. If you admit that God simply watching us from another eternal dimension hasn't caused the future to occur then what has? In order to have something PRE -determined then it has to be decided or set in stone BEFORE it happens. However, God does not PRE determine anything because ...[text shortened]... a causal link or why it predetermines things then you're not going anywhere.
Question: How does God not use time while he's glancing sideways
and here's a site you might agree with:
http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~siegel/parodies/nonabel.html
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Originally posted by frogstompMaybe there is something called 'eternal' time or time passes in some way for God that is not easy to imagine but this is just conjecture. What ever happens I'm sure it's not the same as our constricted sense of sequential time.
Actually you're the one that has something that need to be proven.
Question: How does God not use time while he's glancing sideways
and here's a site you might agree with:
http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~siegel/parodies/nonabel.html
I'm not sure why I have to prove the whole free will thing. You are making a connection between free will (or lack of it) and God's omniscience. I would have thought the onus could be on either of us to prove or disprove a connection or lack of connection.
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhat my point has been is simply that if God knows what you are going to do before you get the chance to do it, then you really don't have free will, no matter what God might want to call it.
Maybe there is something called 'eternal' time or time passes in some way for God that is not easy to imagine but this is just conjecture. What ever happens I'm sure it's not the same as our constricted sense of sequential time.
I'm not sure why I have to prove the whole free will thing. You are making a connection between free will (or lack of it ...[text shortened]... the onus could be on either of us to prove or disprove a connection or lack of connection.
That has to be true except for the conditional argument he didn't create man in the first place.