30 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHIf God knowing the future would require him to be the bad guy and he's not the bad guy then God doesnt know the future.
I thought I was being funny, but I guess I wasn't. God knowing the truth of what I will do before I do so in no way takes away from my free will act. What you are suggesting is akin to hyper-Calvinism, and essentially makes God the bad guy.
30 May 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOops, my bad. I didn't get your joke. Look, I agree that foreknowledge is compatible with free will, but that is because I'm a compatibilist about free will. If you are too, then you and these other folks are talking past one another.
I thought I was being funny, but I guess I wasn't. God knowing the truth of what I will do before I do so in no way takes away from my free will act. What you are suggesting is akin to hyper-Calvinism, and essentially makes God the bad guy.
03 Jun 06
Originally posted by frogstompIt's because he knew all this AFTER it happened and not BEFORE. He doesn't know what you will do until you've done it in the future , but in conjunction with this there is nothing in his nature that stops him from knowing this information in what you call the 'present'. HE doesn't see what you WILL do , he knows what you DID do. He didn't foresee it , he saw it unfold in what is now the past for him.
You are not the thing that created us, knowing full well every action we will ever do. If god knows the future he knew it even before we were created, before the big bang he would have to have known and every action or thought he ever did or had, he knew from the first, if there even was a first. SO how do you suppose that we have free will whe ...[text shortened]... ou have to conjecture a condition where even God , himself has no free-will , to make it work?
03 Jun 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterI'm glad someone here is able to think in four dimensions.
It's because he knew all this AFTER it happened and not BEFORE. He doesn't know what you will do until you've done it in the future , but in conjunction with this there is nothing in his nature that stops him from knowing this information in what you call the 'present'. HE doesn't see what you WILL do , he knows what you DID do. He didn't foresee it , he saw it unfold in what is now the past for him.
03 Jun 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe only troublewith that , is that he Knows what you did before he created you.
It's because he knew all this AFTER it happened and not BEFORE. He doesn't know what you will do until you've done it in the future , but in conjunction with this there is nothing in his nature that stops him from knowing this information in what you call the 'present'. HE doesn't see what you WILL do , he knows what you DID do. He didn't foresee it , he saw it unfold in what is now the past for him.
I do hope you can see how silly what you just wrote is.
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03 Jun 06
Originally posted by frogstompI agree. Saying that God acts out of time seems to just tangle with the definition of omniscience.
The only troublewith that , is that he Knows what you did before he created you.
I do hope you can see how silly what you just wrote is.
04 Jun 06
Originally posted by frogstompYes , he did know what you did with your life in the end but he had no way of knowing what you would do with your life until you actually did it and I'm not convinced at all that he knew it until he created you. You mistakenly think that he knows your future because it's predetermined in some way (because you can't understand how else he could possibly know it) but ACTUALLY it doesn't have to be pre-determined in order for him to know it. Until the very moment you do something God has no idea what you will do but the moment when you actually do it is the same moment as now for him. You know what you did yesterday , does that neccessarily make it pre-determined? You could have done lots of things but in the end you could only choose one , and now you know which choice you made , so why does that logically make it pre-determined?
The only troublewith that , is that he Knows what you did before he created you.
I do hope you can see how silly what you just wrote is.
Another way of looking at it would be to imagine your life is like a pinball machine and you are the ball moving around between the pins and flashing lights (except in this pinball machine you are not flung around randomly but you make free choices where to bounce around). Now imagine God is letting go of the spring loader that fires (creates) the ball (you) and off you go making a myriad of different choices with millions of different outcomes. Now imagine God has the ability to run round the machine so fast to the other side that he can see where the ball is going to end up the instant he lets go of the spring. So that he knows what the ball actually did in the end. What you need to consider is that despite God knowing the outcome of the ball's decisions , he would not know anything unless he released the ball in the first place. The ball would never have had an outcome , so God would not be able to see an outcome.
In short , if God had never created you he would not know anything about your future because you would not have had one. He can only watch , not predict. I think what I wrote sounds silly to us because we are trapped in time and find it hard to understand how a being free of time might perceive things.
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07 Jun 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterHe knew in the end?
Yes , he did know what you did with your life in the end but he had no way of knowing what you would do with your life until you actually did it and I'm not convinced at all that he knew it until he created you.
Then surely there was a time he did not know.
Is he still omniscient.
As I said before we are messing with the definition of omniscient. Most people accept that God is part of this time. When you change this for your argument on omnisience you are part of a minority.
07 Jun 06
Originally posted by Conrau KLet me explain it yet another way. Do you think that if God had not ever created you then he would know everything about your life? I think your answer would probably be 'no' . So would that mean God is not omniscient , because he never created you and therefore never knew what you did with your life? He might make guesses about what might happen if he did create someone like you but he could not know unless you actually lived. But you are alive and making free choices so God will/already knows what you did with your life , but he only knows it because you lived a life.
He knew in the end?
Then surely there was a time he did not know.
Is he still omniscient.
As I said before we are messing with the definition of omniscient. Most people accept that God is part of this time. When you change this for your argument on omnisience you are part of a minority.
The language we use is always going to be inadequate here , but in one sense you are right he did not 'know' because he hadn't created you but since his knowing is also dependent on his decision to create. I'm guessing there must be something like 'eternal time' in his dimension so even if he didn't know at some point in 'time' what you might do he still knows everything about you and your life (and everyone else's) which is still pretty damn omniscient to me. Maybe he is not able to predict his own decisions and so doesn't know absolutely everything but that doesn't bother any Christians I know. It only matters if you have an over pedantic , rigid view of omniscience and are desperate to try and trip Christians up somehow.
07 Jun 06
Originally posted by Conrau KI have no idea what you are talking about here. I know of (and have never heard of any ) no Christians who think that God is anything other than eternal . Sure eternity and time can collide (just like 2 dimensions and 3 dimensions meet) but 'part of' time??? In stating God to be eternal I am infact part of a massive majority.
Most people accept that God is part of this time. When you change this for your argument on omnisience you are part of a minority.
I'm guessing that you are also over rigid with the concept of omnipotence. Where do you stand on the old "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it" debate.
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08 Jun 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou are saying God is outside of time. As many people have tried to explain this doesn't make sense and most christians would not agree with you.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I know of (and have never heard of any ) no Christians who think that God is anything other than eternal . Sure eternity and time can collide (just like 2 dimensions and 3 dimensions meet) but 'part of' time??? In stating God to be eternal I am infact part of a massive majority.
I'm guessing that yo ...[text shortened]... ere do you stand on the old "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it" debate.