Originally posted by josephwSo, if, as you claim, what's in your mind is the same as what's in your God figure's mind, how do you account for the numerous and substantial differences in doctrine (and interpretation thereof) between Christians? What if what's in their minds is different from what's in your mind?
Actually it is in God's mind, and subsequently in mine, that you see the world through the mind of God..
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Originally posted by Rajk999The very same 1 John 3 passage which you quoted does not support your doctrine:
It is effective to confess to God that without Him living in us we simply cannot keep any commandments, at least not adequately.
We could not save ourselves. We have to come to Jesus Christ and receive Him as the Savior. He paid it all. Then we have to walk in Him. The New Testament tells us to continue to WALK in Him exactly as we RECEIVED Him initially, in faith.
"As therefore you have received Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him." (Col. 2:6)
As we initially received Him, not relying on what WE could do, so we should continue to WALK step by step in Him the same way. This is relying on the divine seed of life which is victorious always.
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:6-9 KJV)
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Notice that he says "Everyone who ABIDES ... in Him does not sin ..." (v.6) So the secret is to remain, abide, linger, and log more and more time in Him.
God plants the living Spirit of Christ as a divine seed in the believer.
Thanks for quoting even more of this wonderful passage. John and Paul are teaching the same thing.
Victory is totally wrapped up in this One as the Divine Seed indwelling the believers. He says the victory that overcomes the world is the believer's FAITH.
" For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory which overcomes the world - our faith." ( 1 John 5:4, Recovery Version)
EVERYTHING means that innermost part of the Christian that has been born again - the regenerated human spirit. The divine seed of God's life has been joined to the believer's innermost being, the spirit -
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Faith that overcomes the world is the faith of setting the mind upon that born against spirit where the Spirit of Jesus comes. The seed is the victory. The human spirit born of the Holy Spirit is the victory. And abiding in that realm by faith is the victory.
So the apostle also says the One dwelling in the Christian is greater than evil one in the world.
" ... greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world." ( 1 John 4:4b)
Everything that is born of God overcomes the world.
Christ in the Christian is greater than the one in the world.
So an effective way to pray is to deny what we can do, mustering up our own religious strength no matter how good, and abiding in the living available Christ within.
Other comments below.
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21 Jun 15
The passage says:
1. If you are in Christ you do not sin
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You are not noticing the word ABIDES.
Everyone who ABIDES in Him does not sin ...
So the secret is to remain in the realm and under the influence of His indwelling presence. And this must be practiced on ever deeper and deeper levels. It is a matter of life long growth.
You shouldn't think of it as a once for all event. No, it is a skill learned throughout the Christian life and should grow always deeper - learning to ABIDE in Him.
2. if you sin you did not see Christ
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The Christian must SEE Who and how rich Jesus Christ is. He is everything we need. One must SEE this. And the believer also must see that such a one is within her and is one spirit with her spirit.
The Lord Jesus is with the believer's spirit -
" The Lord be with your spirit. " ( 2 Timothy 4:22a)
And because the Lord Jesus is with my spirit and even one spirit with my spirit (1 Cor. 6:17) the GRACE of the Lord is with my spirit.
" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." ( Phil. 4:23)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen." ( Gal. 6:18)
The Christian MUST learn to discern his spirit.
We should not just jumble haphazardly upon our spirit now and then. We must learn "This is MY spirit. I will abide in MY spirit. I will exercise my spirit."
Sometime in worship the believer senses God in a more real way. He doesn't know why on that occasion he did. But he touched his human spirit somehow.
Perhaps it was in singing. Perhaps in calling on he name of the Lord. Perhaps in praising. But the believer must learn to exercise the human spirit once he is born again. The Lord is with his spirit. And the enjoyment of God's enabling him to live is with his spirit. The grace is with his spirit.
To find the spirit we must use our mouth.
We must open our mouth and call and praise the Lord.
The Key to Experiencing Christ - The Human Spirit by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=2103A61B
3. if you sin you do not know Christ
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So the Christian must deepen and deepen his knowing of Christ.
This is a matter of growth and maturing.
You can see that in John's audience there are varied levels of growth in spiritual life.
There are little children (1:12).
There are fathers (1:13).
There are young men (1:14).
This is the normal church life in a practical way. Like a family there are levels of growth. There are newborns. There are little children, young men, fathers. All are in the process of seeing Christ more and of abiding in Christ more.
To John's level they are all little children, even the aged fathers among them.
"And now little children, abide in Him ..." ( 2:28)
If you make this epistle a simplistic binary matter - either you see and know Christ or you don't, you have a view which is too superficial.
The SEED implies growth. And growth means varied levels of maturity. So I see Christ but I need to see Him even more. So I know Jesus Christ. But how I need to know Jesus even more.
I never graduate. I do not graduate from breathing. I cannot say "I breathed once and because of that I have arrived. I no longer need to breath."
That is foolish. Rather I must continually breath even moment by moment for my whole life. If I stop breathing too long I will die. So the Christian must abide in Christ living in him moment by moment. And this is a life long matter which should spread and deepen and also unite the believers more together in oneness.
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4. if you do righteous things you are righteous
5. if you sin you are of the devil
6. if you are born of God you do not sin
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All these points only go to show how the SEED of life must grow.
John enlarges on #3 :about knowing God or Christ - knowing God is about following the commandments of Christ
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:3-4 KJV)
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All this is also a matter of the little children growing, the young men growing, and even the aged spiritual fathers growing.
In the normal church life all the family should be growing. In His prayer Jesus spoke of BEING perfected as a process.
" I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me ..." (John 17:23a)
To be PERFECTED indicates a developing process. It is not a BINGO! once and for all you are made perfect.
In being redeemed with eternal redemption. That is a BINGO! event that takes place once when we receive Jesus as our Savior. But this is to receive Him. We have to continue to WALK in Him. And this walking is a process.
In the epistle John did not say EVERYONE receiving his letter was a father. He said there were little children, there were young men, and their were fathers. And he is writing to EACH group.
"I write to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you because of His name.
I write to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one.
The seed of Jesus Christ is at varied levels of development in the family. Then he repeats pretty much the same matter this time using the past tense more.
"I write to you, young children, because you know the Father.
I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men, because you are strong and the word of God abides in you and you have overcome the evil one." (vs.13c-14)
Sometimes John explains HOW the divine life withing them should express itself. It will express itself in practical help sometime in assistance of the needy brother.
"But whoever has the livelihood of the world and sees that his brothers has need and shuts up his affections from him, how does the love of God abide in him ?
Little children, [meaning ALL of the saints] let us not love in word nor in tongue but in deed and trurthfulness." (3:17,18)
The saints need to know "The Life in you, the Seed in you, He will come out and be expressed in THIS way, and in THAT way."
You may point out the commandment to love the brothers. But the loving of the brothers is the expression of the divine life. The believers know that they have passed out of death and into life BECAUSE they have love for the brotherhood.
" We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers. He who does not love abides in death." (3:14)
Divine life is growing in the brothers: in the little children, in the young men, and in the fathers. In the whole family of the practical church life, divine life is growing.
In some areas He still needs to break through. One may love selectively. One may love those who are like him and agree with him. The is not the pure agape love. So the saint still has an amount of death that needs to be swallowed up and overcome.
As he grows he learns not to love in a fickle manner, just those according to his personal taste. But he learns to love the brother simply because he is a brother in Christ. He is passing out of death into life.
He is deepening in spiritual life. He is growing in spiritual life. And he knows he is passed from death into life because of the deepening and growing pure love. He leaves the selective love behind as a thing of the old creation. He grows, he matures, he is being perfected into oneness by the agape love of all the brothers.
If he refuses to let the Lord grow in him, to some degree he still abides in death. Some part of his being is still living in death even though he has eternal life in his spirit.
" We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers. He who does not love abides in death. "
John is very strong here.
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So to know God or Christ is to keep his commandments.
If the love of God is within someone, then that love is demonstrated by the charitable works which is done to others.
All of that which John says is very far from the doctrine of Witness Lee with you spread around here.
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A real genuine ministry of God should help people to practically enter into the matter being ministered.
The value of Witness Lee's ministry is it has helped thousands enter into the practical church life.
This is not to mention the millions of Christians on the mainland of China, meeting somewhat under the radar of the Communist government. These all were helped by the ministry of Watchman Nee, Witness Lee and their co-workers.
It may seem that I am promoting Witness Lee for his own sake. Well, I admit that I am promoting the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, but not for their own sakes.
I quote and recommend these messages because they help people to practically enter into the overcoming Christian life.
The following paragraph is wroth very much in clarity.
God’s eternal purpose is to work Himself into us as our life so that we may take Him as our person, live Him, and express Him. This is the desire of God’s heart; it is also the focal point of the Bible. In order to fulfill this purpose, God created man in His image and after His likeness. God’s intention in creating man was that man would receive God into him and take Him as his life and everything to him. For this reason, after God created man, He placed him in front of the tree of life. This indicates that God wanted man to eat of this tree, which is a symbol of God Himself as life. To eat of the tree of life is to take God into us as our life and life supply.
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In Genesis 3 the serpent tempted man to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As a result of eating of this tree, man became fallen. Instead of partaking of the tree of life, man ate of the tree of knowledge.
The principle of life is dependence, whereas the principle of knowledge is independence. For example, after a student of mathematics learns all his instructor has to teach him, he can be independent of his teacher. Because the student knows mathematics for himself, it is no longer necessary for him to depend on this teacher. Knowledge leads to independence, but life requires constant dependence. We can never afford to become independent with respect to the means of life. In fact, the more life we have, the more dependent we are. To maintain our physical life we must breathe, drink, and eat. If we want to stay alive, we cannot graduate from breathing, drinking, and eating.
If man had not fallen, man’s living would not be independent from God, but man would continually take God in and live by Him. Man would depend on God, and there would be no separation between God and man. Man would be able to receive God directly as life, live by Him, and even live Him. What a wonderful situation that would be!
From Life Study of Exodus by Witness Lee, Msg 64, Living Stream Ministry.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=21E3
21 Jun 15
To abide in Christ is to follow his commandments.
Following Christ commandments keeps the believer free from sin.
If someone claims to believe in Christ but does not follow his commandments then that believer is NOT ABIDING IN CHRIST.
This is the point that you are missing.
For you, abiding in Christ is to proclaim your faith with your mouth.
For Christ abiding in Christ means obeying his commnadments
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
(John 15:4-7 KJV)
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Originally posted by Rajk999To abide in Christ is to follow his commandments.
Following Christ commandments keeps the believer free from sin.
If someone claims to believe in Christ but does not follow his commandments then that believer is NOT ABIDING IN CHRIST.
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I think you're missing the point. As we received Christ Jesus the Lord so we are to walk in Him. I received Christ purely by faith. Even the faith somehow came from God.
Our heart has many many compartments. How then can Christ move into each one of the chambers of our hearts? He can do so by faith.
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith." (Eph. 3:17)
Areas of our heart as the choosing will, the feeling emotion, the contemplating mind, the memory, the imagination etc. All these "rooms" are waiting for Christ to come into to make His home. Not a visit, but a home, to rearrange matters as He wishes. This is done by faith.
And it is good to tell Him that you have no confidence in yourself to be able to live the Christian life. We are dependent upon Him.
Can you be perfect even as the heavenly Father is perfect?
Of course you cannot without dependence on the LIFE of the Father.
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21 Jun 15
Abraham could not have a child with his wife on his own.
He had to realize that he was as good as dead.
When he realized this then he believed God to come in and do for him what he could not do.
"Therefore the inheritance is out of faith that it might be according to grace, ... in the sight of God whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being.
He beyond hope believed in hope ... and not weakening in faith, he considered his own body as already dead, being about a hundred years old, as well as the deadening of Sarah's womb ... but was empowered by faith, giving glory to God
And being fully persuaded that what He had promised He was able also to do.
Therefore also it was accounted to him as righteousness." (See Romans 4:16-22)
It is good to tell God that concerning all of His commandments you are as good as dead, just like Abraham "the father of faith."
You should read the Life Study of Genesis by Witness Lee.
You would be greatly benefited by this.
When Abraham sought to fulfill God's promise in his own strength, the result was Ishmael. God didn't speak to him after this self effort, for 13 years.
After 13 years of God letting Abraham realize what a mess of things his self effort had made, God appeared to him again. Relieved at the reappearance of God Abraham fell on his face!
Look at the end of chapter 16 and the beginning of chapter 17. That is a gap of 13 years in which God was silent.
"And Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.
And when Abram was ninety-nine years old, Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him,
I am the All-sufficient God; Walk before Me, and be perfect.
And I will make My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.
And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, ... " (See Gen. 16:16-17:3)
Don't disparage brothers who have richly expounded these things. Witness Lee's Life Study of Genesis is every enlightening on the whole matter of Abraham's self effort and its failure in contrast to God's grace.
The ALL-sufficient God has all we need to walk before Him.
The word picture of El Shadai is a large female mammary gland. That is a big udder or a large breast of a woman.
The word picture in Hebrew of El Shadai is the big breasted mother who has all the nourishment, all the nutrients in her milk to supply the baby to live.
This is the same in nature as Christ's word that we shall be perfect even as our heavenly Father is perfect. The Father's life imparted into man can transform man into obedience in full.
God's eternal purpose includes that He will present the saved before Himself without spot, holy, and perfected.
" Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love." (Eph. 1:4)
What could you possibly have against us casting all our hope in God to operate in us both the willing and the working for His good pleasure?
So telling God that we just cannot make it is done in faith. And even more that we proclaim that through Him we can make it. With Him and in Him we can do all things.
Phil. 4:13
American King James Version
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.
American Standard Version
I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me.
I can do nothing independently from His indwelling grace.
I can do nothing by not abiding in Him.
All that I do apart from Him will amount to nothing. It is Ishmael. But Isaac is brought forth by grace through faith.
The word says be empowered in the Lord.
We are not empowered in any "obedience" done apart from the Lord or independent from the Lord.
21 Jun 15
Originally posted by FMFThat is such a good question! I ask it of myself all the time.
So, if, as you claim, what's in your mind is the same as what's in your God figure's mind, how do you account for the numerous and substantial differences in doctrine (and interpretation thereof) between Christians? What if what's in their minds is different from what's in your mind?
Logical sequence. We begin with a Holy God that is infallible. All Bible believing Christians will unanimously agree with that premise. The ones who don't are either ignorant of that truth or they are not numbered among the faithful.
Then there are the fundamental doctrines of The Faith. All true believers are aware of them, and those who aren't are either ignorant of them, or they are not counted among the faithful.
God knows those that are His, and who isn't. The churches are full this morning of both.
The basis of The Faith is rooted in the person of the Son of God. When one agrees with God about who Jesus is, what He did on the cross on our behalf, and agrees with God and believes that Jesus rose from the dead, that one has the "mind of Christ".
All at once, at the moment of conversion, the believer receives the life of Christ and all that that means spiritually, but we all start out as babes, intellectually as it were, and with diligent study of God's Word one grows into adulthood. Spiritual maturity.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Everything will be revealed.
21 Jun 15
Originally posted by josephwHaving said it was "such a good question", you then danced around it.
That is such a good question! I ask it of myself all the time.
Logical sequence. We begin with a Holy God that is infallible. All Bible believing Christians will unanimously agree with that premise. The ones who don't are either ignorant of that truth or they are not numbered among the faithful.
Then there are the fundamental doctrines of The Faith. A ...[text shortened]... l suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Everything will be revealed.