Gotcha

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Ghost, so if someone told you they would kill everyone alive if you don't rape a child, you would do it? I don't think you've thought this through Ghost...

It's amusing to see what hoops you would jump through to try to justify your belief that moral absolutes don't exist simply because your atheism demands it.

How is this one for you Ghost: is the ...[text shortened]... believe in moral absolutes you would have to say yes. I would love to see you justify this one.

Please take your sick questions elsewhere. I don't log in to this site to engage in such depraved conversations.


Edit: To prevent your tiresome response to the above. My answer to your sick question is an 'absolute NO!'


Please try and get it through your thick skull that there are many things 'I as an individual' am absolutely certain about. This has no impact however on someone who is absolutely certain of the exact opposite of what I am absolutely certain about. Why is this?' Because there 'is no' moral lawgiver and as a consequence no moral absolutes. At best I can speak for myself and perhaps the society I grew up in. (And like-minded societies). Morality is man-made. Anything beyond that is a nonsense.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Please take your sick questions elsewhere. I don't log in to this site to engage in such depraved conversations.

It is "depraved" ?

There is a measuring rod against which you measure the subject and decide that it is universally unacceptable, universally OUGHT NOT BE ?

Is it "depraved" everywhere in time and everywhere in the universe, always ?

If so then I assume you must believe there is a absolute moral standard against which to measure things.

Yes?
No?

Originally posted by @sonship
It is "depraved" ?

There is a measuring rod against which you measure the subject and decide that it is universally unacceptable, universally OUGHT NOT BE ?

Is it "depraved" everywhere in time and everywhere in the universe, always ?

If so then I assume you must believe there is a absolute moral standard against which to measure things.

Yes?
No?

Yes, his constant analogies of child abuse (when a thousand other examples are available) are depraved. I honestly don't want to read that stuff.

See my edit to my last post. That is my last word on this sick topic. I have made my position crystal clear.


Edit: First, for month after month, he gives us 'is it ever okay to torture babies for fun,' and now we have to endure 'is it ever okay to rape a child?'

Are you seriously saying there is nothing depraved in the nature and obsessive focus of his questions?!

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Yes, his constant analogies of child abuse (when a thousand other examples are available) are depraved. I honestly don't want to read that stuff.

See my edit to my last post. That is my last word on this sick topic. I have made my position crystal clear.


Edit: First, for month after month, he gives us 'is it ever okay to torture babies for f ...[text shortened]... seriously saying there is nothing depraved in the nature and obsessive focus of his questions?!

I did not over notice the details.

I think from you I got the answer that I was looking for (unpleasant details aside).

The "Yes" means to me that you do believe in a absolute moral standard.

When I spot check some of djbecker's discussions it appears that the Moral Argument for the existence of God is what he is get some atheist types to recognize.

Can you be Good Without God?

Its only Five minutes

YouTube : =MoralArgument

Not afraid of rebuttals though.
I notice a couple out there in a similar format.

I figure you can locate them on your own.
I'm going to watch a couple this week.

Originally posted by @sonship
I did not over notice the details.

I think from you I got the answer that I was looking for (unpleasant details aside).

The [b]"Yes" means to me that you do believe in a absolute moral standard.

When I spot check some of djbecker's discussions it appears that the Moral Argument for the existence of God is what he is get some atheist types t ...[text shortened]... lar format.

I figure you can locate them on your own.
I'm going to watch a couple this week.[/b]

NO. You cannot be good without God.
Therefore if a man is good then God is with that man
If a man is not good then God is not with that man.

YES you can profess that you know God or that you believe in God
That profession of faith does not make a man good or make a man do good
Only those who actually do good are good.
Doers of good have God.

Originally posted by @sonship
I did not over notice the details.

I think from you I got the answer that I was looking for (unpleasant details aside).

The [b]"Yes" means to me that you do believe in a absolute moral standard.

When I spot check some of djbecker's discussions it appears that the Moral Argument for the existence of God is what he is get some atheist types t ...[text shortened]... lar format.

I figure you can locate them on your own.
I'm going to watch a couple this week.[/b]

What I would like to get from you Sonship (instead of a youtube clip) is a shared abhorrence of someone repeatedly and unnecessarily using the torture or rape of children as an example to get his message across.

Can you do that?


And my 'yes' came with a very clear caveat. I believe in 'my own' absolute moral standard on many topics and do in no way attribute this to a moral lawgiver or presuppose that everyone on the planet will share the same moral outlook.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke

What I would like to get from you Sonship (instead of a youtube clip) is a shared abhorrence of someone repeatedly and unnecessarily using the torture or rape of children as an example to get his message across.

Can you do that?

That may be the most jolting example he uses to jar the atheist's sensibilities. I think another example could work yet less dramatic.


Do you express a similar concern when Divegeester hounds some of us about burning flesh of those tortured alive under the sadistic observation of Jesus ?

I don't recall you recoiling in revulsion at that example in the same way.

That's different huh ?

And my 'yes' came with a very clear caveat. I believe in 'my own' absolute moral standard on many topics and do in no way attribute this to a moral lawgiver or presuppose that everyone on the planet will share the same moral outlook.

The example that is used attempts to highlight that on SOME issue there is universal agreement.

But this is just the example that you wish he wouldn't use.

I have seen other examples. Like universally it seems that cowardice in the face of battle is not exalted as valor.

Or unfaithfulness in return for faithfulness of a friend is I think universally shunned.

Those are perhaps less shocking examples.
You can't blame djbecker wanting to use a surefire example clearly abominable universally.

Originally posted by @rajk999
NO. You cannot be good without God.
Therefore if a man is good then God is with that man
If a man is not good then God is not with that man.

YES you can profess that you know God or that you believe in God
That profession of faith does not make a man good or make a man do good
Only those who actually do good are good.
Doers of good have God.

Chapters and verses, or this again more (if you twist the words and look at them just right)
you can make them say whatever it is you want.

Originally posted by @sonship

What I would like to get from you Sonship (instead of a youtube clip) is a shared abhorrence of someone repeatedly and unnecessarily using the torture or rape of children as an example to get his message across.

Can you do that?

That may be the most jolting example he uses to jar the atheist's sensibilities. I think another example ...[text shortened]... es.
You can't blame djbecker wanting to use a surefire example clearly abominable universally.

"That may be the most jolting example he uses to jar the atheist's sensibilities. I think another example could work yet less dramatic."


No, I'm not accepting that. You fail utterly to share any ' abhorrence of someone repeatedly and unnecessarily using the torture or rape of children as an example to get his message across.'

You have allowed yourself to become tarnished by his depraved mindset and I have no interest in communicating with you further in this forum. We won't speak again.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Chapters and verses, or this again more (if you twist the words and look at them just right)
you can make them say whatever it is you want.

Interpret it as you wish. Here is the GNB version

Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done. Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. Here is the clear difference between God's children and the Devil's children: those who do not do what is right or do not love others are not God's children. (1 John 3:7-10 GNB)

Originally posted by @rajk999
Interpret it as you wish. Here is the GNB version

Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done. Those who are ...[text shortened]... ho do not do what is right or do not love others are not God's children. (1 John 3:7-10 GNB)

I am in complete agreement with this text! You realize God gives us His Spirit we don’t work to earn it, we work His will after we receive it?

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I am in complete agreement with this text! You realize God gives us His Spirit we don’t work to earn it, we work His will after we receive it?

Chapters and verses, or this again more (if you twist the words and look at them just right) you can make them say whatever it is you want.

Originally posted by @rajk999
Chapters and verses, or this again more (if you twist the words and look at them just right) you can make them say whatever it is you want.

John 7:39
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16-18 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

ESV Ephesians 2
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Galatians 3:5
Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
John 7:39
Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16-18 English Standard Version (ESV)
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world c ...[text shortened]... mes 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

So is it your view that nobody was righteous, neither were they capable of doing good, neither was God with anyone, before Jesus Christ came and gave people His Spirit?

Originally posted by @rajk999
So is it your view that nobody was righteous, neither were they capable of doing good, neither was God with anyone, before Jesus Christ came and gave people His Spirit?

I have not said people without the Spirit of God were not able to do good works, just that
they were not able to please God. We are told by Jesus that only one is good and it isn't
us, you want to compare your efforts to God's? We receive the Holy Spirit, by asking God
not earning Him as if He were a paycheck for our human efforts, you cannot bribe, pay
off, force God into anything. He offers us a gift and you want to say no you want to earn it.

Romans 8:7-9 English Standard Version (ESV)
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Luke 6:32-35 English Standard Version (ESV)
32 “If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

ESV Luke 11:
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”