Hardening of heart.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The Bible clearly says 'Pharaoh hardened his heart' and 'God hardened Pharaohs heart'. If it was God in both instances why the distinction?

You have a problem with timelines.

I quoted where God says he will harden Pharaoh’s heart. I have quoted where Pharaoh's heart is hardened without Pharaoh doing it.

You make God a liar.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Hardening is becoming more opposed to something, example being the more he talked about me buying a new car the less I wanted to. Being opposed to God or His will would mean we are digging in to oppose. The more God could show you the more you would have to harden your heart to reject it.

Think about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, if there was eve ...[text shortened]... d of accepting Jesus they plotted to kill Him and Lazarus. They without a doubt had hard hearts.

If that is the case, why would a god do that to the one person with the power to release all those Jews? Like I said before, why would this god modify the brain of the Pharaoh to make it more difficult to get his pet Jews released? It just doesn't make sense. Is that an indication your god doesn't know jack how to deal with humans?

Originally posted by @sonhouse
If that is the case, why would a god do that to the one person with the power to release all those Jews? Like I said before, why would this god modify the brain of the Pharaoh to make it more difficult to get his pet Jews released?

God is working in the universe to show us Who He is compared to every other we might put our faith in. Some trust in chariots as the scripture says, He is doing a work for the world.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
God is working in the universe to show us Who He is compared to every other we might put our faith in. Some trust in chariots as the scripture says, He is doing a work for the world.

In other words, you NEVER question whether your god knows what it is doing? Like allegedly killing ALL land animals to spite some bad humans in the flood tale? This is the work of a sane god? You don't figure, if true, it didn't go just a WEE bit overboard in that affair? Besides all the plot problems with that tale, like the genetic diversity inherent in running the land animal life to just a single reproducing pair, none of that bothers you I assume.
It's funny, that flood tale wasn't even taken as real but as allegory till some assshole in the 19th century decided it was real and thus the literalist movement was born.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
In other words, you NEVER question whether your god knows what it is doing? Like allegedly killing ALL land animals to spite some bad humans in the flood tale? This is the work of a sane god? You don't figure, if true, it didn't go just a WEE bit overboard in that affair? Besides all the plot problems with that tale, like the genetic diversity inherent in ...[text shortened]... some assshole in the 19th century decided it was real and thus the literalist movement was born.

My understanding is He sees every partical in the universe as well as sees how they all interact with one another, as He also sees the beginning and the end, and a God that is like that knows better than I. He tells us that this life and universe are temporary and eternal life is coming. If He has a plan the end result must be good!

Originally posted by @eladar
You have a problem with timelines.

I quoted where God says he will harden Pharaoh’s heart. I have quoted where Pharaoh's heart is hardened without Pharaoh doing it.

You make God a liar.

Yet you ignore the parts where Pharaoh hardened his heart. I agree God hardened it further.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Yet you ignore the parts where Pharaoh hardened his heart. I agree God hardened it further.

Do you have the order of events? What verse is the first time Pharaoh hardens his own heart?

Originally posted by @eladar
Do you have the order of events? What verse is the first time Pharaoh hardens his own heart?

First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be killed at birth (Exodus 1:16). The pharaoh God hardened was an evil man, and the nation he ruled agreed with, or at least did not oppose, his evil actions.

Second, before the first few plagues, Pharaoh hardened his own heart against letting the Israelites go. “Pharaoh's heart became hard” (Exodus 7:13, 22; 8:19). “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:15). “But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart” (Exodus 8:32). Pharaoh could have spared Egypt of all the plagues if he had not hardened his own heart. God was giving Pharaoh increasingly severe warnings of the judgment that was to come. Pharaoh chose to bring judgment on himself and on his nation by hardening his own heart against God’s commands.

As a result of Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart even further, allowing for the last few plagues (Exodus 9:12; 10:20, 27). Pharaoh and Egypt had brought these judgments on themselves with 400 years of slavery and mass murder. Since the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and Pharaoh and Egypt had horribly sinned against God, it would have been just if God had completely annihilated Egypt. Therefore, God’s hardening Pharaoh’s heart was not unjust, and His bringing additional plagues against Egypt was not unjust. The plagues, as terrible as they were, actually demonstrate God’s mercy in not completely destroying Egypt, which would have been a perfectly just penalty.

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden-Pharaoh-heart.html

Originally posted by @dj2becker
First, Pharaoh was not an innocent or godly man. He was a brutal dictator overseeing the terrible abuse and oppression of the Israelites, who likely numbered over 1.5 million people at that time. The Egyptian pharaohs had enslaved the Israelites for 400 years. A previous pharaoh—possibly even the pharaoh in question—ordered that male Israelite babies be k ...[text shortened]... ave been a perfectly just penalty.

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-harden-Pharaoh-heart.html

I see you really don't have anything before Exodus 4 where God claims he will harden Pharaoh’s heart.

Here is Exodus 7

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it.”

6 Moses and Aaron did just as the Lord commanded them. 7 Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three when they spoke to Pharaoh.

Aaron’s Staff Becomes a Snake
8 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 9 “When Pharaoh says to you, ‘Perform a miracle,’ then say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,’ and it will become a snake.”

10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.


Do you have any mention of hardening before this?

Originally posted by @eladar
I see you really don't have anything before Exodus 4 where God claims he will harden Pharaoh’s heart.

Here is Exodus 7

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of ...[text shortened]... isten to them, just as the Lord had said.


Do you have any mention of hardening before this?

So are you saying Pharaoh never hardened his heart towards God by enslaving his people and killing the first born sons? Exodus 1?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So are you saying Pharaoh never hardened his heart towards God by enslaving his people and killing the first born sons? Exodus 1?

You are guessing if God hardens a heart or if a person does it, unless it is clearly stated in the Bible.

I am basing my belief on what the Bible clearly states, not on a guess.

Btw, is the Pharaoh in Exodus 1 the same Pharaoh in exodus 7?

Originally posted by @eladar
You are guessing if God hardens a heart or if a person does it, unless it is clearly stated in the Bible.

I am basing my belief on what the Bible clearly states, not on a guess.

Btw, is the Pharaoh in Exodus 1 the same Pharaoh in exodus 7?

So tell me this if God hardened his heart each time why does one part say Pharaoh hardened his heart and another part say God hardened his heart. It would only say God did it if it was just God. That much is clear.

Could have been the same guy, not sure though but definitely was enslaving Gods people.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
So tell me this if God hardened his heart each time why does one part say Pharaoh hardened his heart and another part say God hardened his heart. It would only say God did it if it was just God. That much is clear.

Could have been the same guy, not sure though but definitely was enslaving Gods people.

I said the first time, not every time. God set the hardening in motion. Pharaoh did not have a choice.

Originally posted by @eladar
I said the first time, not every time. God set the hardening in motion. Pharaoh did not have a choice.

The first time says "Pharaoh hardened his heart..." , later on it says "God hardened Pharaohs heart."

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The first time says "Pharaoh hardened his heart..." , later on it says "God hardened Pharaohs heart."

Chapter and verse please.