@kellyjay saidA perfect contender then to use a majestic plural.
No I do not, I consider God all powerful, perfection in holiness, justice and sovereign, there is no comparison between Him and anything or anyone in the universe.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIf we were talking about a fictional character in a novel, God is not a fictional character in a book and comparing Him to anyone is to lower Him to a common level. As I said, you are not seeing God’s revelation; you make it up as you go.
A perfect contender then to use a majestic plural.
Psalm 68:20
Our God is a God of salvation, and to God, the Lord, belong deliverances from death.
1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
John 1 English Standard Version (ESV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Wonderful passages. Thanks and Amen.
I'm 63 now, I became a Christian at 25 and I tell you, you are absolutely correct, God is the best part of Christianity, nothing and no one is better! The thing about becoming a Christian, it is like wearing shoes that will correct your posture, it is painful at first, but closer you get to walking correctly the better you feel. For me the most important things about God is that He is personal, He speaks to us, He sets up laws, He reveals Himself to us through revelation. When in the book of 2 Corinthians tells us to test ourselves to see if Christ is in us or our faith is in vain, or that we need the Spirit of God or we don't belong to God, or that if we deny the Son we don't have the Father. It is a personal thing between us and God if it isn't than we are missing out, literally on the greatest thing that there is, God is good, right, just, love, all that He is, He is the ultimate of these things, nothing He has made is better than Him so He sharing Himself with us is giving us the best there is.
There is not a check list of do this and not that to become, there are no scales to see if our good works out weigh our bad, it is Jesus Christ our propitiation, our redeemer, or we die in our sins, He is the only Way, a way not made because we were such great thing to have, no, because He loves us, a much surer foundation than our own worth before God.
That was a fantastic testimony. And thanks for the verses that followed. Amen.
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Thanks Kelly. I hope you don't think I'm ganging up on you. I hope I haven't done that and sorry if I have.
Its considerate of you to say so. But that's part of your training. However, you're still wrong about the trinity.
My take on ones who accept the trinity ( many of my relatives do being in the south as you know ) is as you have said it is difficult to explain at times. And I've come across more then a hand full of versions.
Galveston, you may hunt for version of the doctrine. You may collect articles and gloat that some seem inconsistent.
The Father is God.
The Son is also God.
The Holy Spirit is also God.
That is really what we know. That is all we really need to know.
Gloating, like this is just an excuse - " Yea, but this writer said something a little different from this other writer. And this Christian explained it differently from that Christian. So then because I see variations and differences in discussion this emboldens be all the more to dismiss the whole trinity. Everybody would say exactly the same thing if there was a Trinity."
This kind of rationalization to disbelieve that the Father is God - the Son is God - the Holy Spirit is God is just indicative unbelief and inexperience. It also displays a pride in leaning on one's own understanding rather than trusting what God has said.
If there were no mysteriousness to the faith God then Paul would not have spoken of "the mystery of the faith". Yet he expects the serving ones in the church life to hold to this faith thought somethings in it are hard to explain.
"Deacons must similarly be grave, not double tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for base gain. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience." (1 Tim. 3:8,9)
Paul, who authored 13 or so books of the New Testament's 27 books speak of holding with a pure conscience "the mystery of the faith". He is not bragging that everything about the faith is very easy to comprehend. Nor does he insinuate that those who cannot voice everything about the faith are to be ridiculed.
These kinds of reactions are indications of human pride at work. Christ is called "the mystery of God" (Col. 2:2)
Now the Pacific Ocean or The Grand Canyon are also mysteries in creation, we well might say. But I don't think that is what the NT means when it speaks of "the mystery of God, Christ" (Col. 2:2) or the church as "the mystery of Christ" (Eph. 3:4)
You are not the first Jehovahs Witness I have met with a subtle smugness that with you, why, there is no mystery. Why you have confidence in yourself that the Watchtower curriculum can remove all foolish obscurity from the Bible that poor little naive baffled Christians think is so much of a "mystery".
This is a smug self confidence of the type which caused Ishmael to mock Isaac.
God is Father.
God is Son.
God is Holy Spirit.
This is mysterious. And Christians are called to participate in the enjoyment of the wonderful revelation with a pure conscience. Some or perhaps better to verbalize its mystery and others less. Don't think you can dissuade many believers who have experienced God with your education about a Babylonian trinity.
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galveston,
Maybe you just don't know what we are experiencing. Maybe you're on the outside looking in and interpreting as best as YOU can what little rational problems you can come along and "help" Christians with.
God has given me something that is impossible for you to take away. You can't "help" me to reject the Son and the Holy Spirit as God. You can't "help" me to turn my back on the "God and Father who is over all and through all and in all" the members of the body of Christ (Eph. 4:6).
The Father got into us. "God and Father who is ... IN ALL". And we can detect no difference between God the Father and the Lord Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit the Comforter.
You can't "help" us. You cannot come with you proud human logic and unbelief in His word and kindly "help" us. What is in us is living and "organic". The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
We know that Jesus Christ is in us. ( 2 Cor. 13:5)
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved."
Our faith does not rest upon the wisdom of men but upon the power of God. (1 Cor. 2:5)
Actually, your group presumes to be able to eliminate "the mystery of the faith" with your kind of proud self reliance on man's wisdom. It so kills the human ego and pride to come under the Lordship of Jesus. But if you die with Him you also will live with Him.
@kellyjay saidIt is you sir who are misconstruing a majestic plural, and in doing so, misunderstanding the very nature of God.
If we were talking about a fictional character in a novel, God is not a fictional character in a book and comparing Him to anyone is to lower Him to a common level. As I said, you are not seeing God’s revelation; you make it up as you go.
Jesus commanded the apostles:
"go and baptise in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit."
There is not one instance in the entire NT where the disciples baptised using the trinitarian formula - which incidentally is entirely relevant.
Maybe you are wrong to consider Matthew 28:19 a "formula".
I think you are inserting into the text that Jesus said "use this formula".
Not only you, but others also, maybe considering that Jesus was instructing the disciples exactly what they should utter as a creedal formula. The evidence though is that the disciples did not treat the Lord's words in Matthew 28:19 as a creedal formula that they were legally bound to recite.
"Into the name" must mean into the Person, into the reality, into the living God - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
So we see in Acts the disciples doing just that, immersing the new believers into the participation in God through Jesus Christ.
In other words, I think people who make a point out of arguing the differences between the record of the book of Acts and the command of Jesus in Matthew 28:19 are being experts at missing the point.
Into Jesus, upon Jesus, in the name of Jesus was into the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God.
The disciples baptised using the name of Jesus every single time without fail - thus: I baptise you in the name of Jesus Christ
I would recommend that you are very much missing the point by expecting there was a legal requirement on what must be SAID when baptizing.
Any number of things based upon the truth of the Bible be uttered in faith when baptizing new believers.
I would count 100% legitimate to utter "We baptize you into One Body" or
"we baptize you into the death of Christ" or "We baptize you into the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or "We baptize you into One Spirit" .
For the word of God also tells us -
"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, ... " (1 Cor. 12:13)
For the word of God also tells us-
"Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (Rom. 6:3)
All these truths we should stand upon in faith. And any of them is good to pray out in faith when plunging new believers into the water of baptism.
and never: I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the son and of the holy spirit
Everytime men and women were baptized in faith it was into the Triune God - into His reality - into Him - into His Name.
So what is the one single name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy ghost? it is Jesus. Jesus is the name of the Father and the holy spirit - it's right there in Acts!
Praise the Lord then. Into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is into Jesus. And visa versa.
Irrespective of doves, prayers, calling out, they are the same single person, the same single entity. Not three. Three is pagan and totally unscriptural. The disciples new this.
But Father - Christ - Spirit are interchangeable titles in the experience spoken of by Paul in Romans 8:9-11. This is not a creedal system. This is "shop talk" expecting and taking for granted that the listening audience knows exactly what is being said.
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:9-11)
I have written this before. But this time I don't leave out a crucial point -
By applying this Spirit and utilizing this Spirit in faith that indwells the believer, he can enter into the real life of being buried in baptism and raised in newness of life with Christ. For the next two verses highlight this.
"So then brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. For it you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (vs. 12,13)
Usually when expounding on verses 9 through 11 I do not go on to mention 12 and 13. This time I don't want to fail to underscore their importantance.
This indwelling Spirit is available. But the one in whom He is living has to learn to live and practice applying Him to to put to death the practices of the sinful body of fallen flesh so that he truly may live in this realm in which he has been baptized.
It is not magic. It is however cooperation with the miraculous.
I have experience. I need much more experience. I expect to increase in experience up until the time either I die of Jesus comes back for me while I live.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI am not the one arguing over how a fictional character is being characterized.
It is you sir who are misconstruing a majestic plural, and in doing so, misunderstanding the very nature of God.
@kellyjay saidAgain, why am I unable to discuss how a character in a book is being characterized, even if I do believe them to be fictional?
I am not the one arguing over how a fictional character is being characterized.
Of the two of us, you are one who seems 'ignorant' of the concept of a majestic plural and how this might be applied to the language used by God in describing Himself.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou are doing just that, and I am looking at Scripture as the revealed revelation from God. Our foundational starting points are entirely different. You are looking at it as if it were a bottom-up task to put your spin on it. I view it as God’s Word, so I am not dismissing things in it, like God referring to Himself as ”Us Our.” I am also not putting a modern spin on it to make it mean something not done during the days it was written.
Again, why am I unable to discuss how a character in a book is being characterized, even if I do believe them to be fictional?
Of the two of us, you are one who seems 'ignorant' of the concept of a majestic plural and how this might be applied to the language used by God in describing Himself.
You can because it is not a revelation to you only fictional characters in bogus stories.
@kellyjay saidActually, you are putting a spin on original scripture.
You are doing just that, and I am looking at Scripture as the revealed revelation from God. Our foundational starting points are entirely different. You are looking at it as if it were a bottom-up task to put your spin on it. I view it as God’s Word, so I am not dismissing things in it, like God referring to Himself as ”Us Our.” I am also not putting a modern spin on it to m ...[text shortened]... ritten.
You can because it is not a revelation to you only fictional characters in bogus stories.
Its called 'the Trinity.'