17 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidThe Word of God is not a different god; the Son of God is not the product between God, the Father, and someone else.
@KellyJay
OK, I tried.
17 Jan 20
@KellyJay
The Word is Jesus. He is Jehovah's spokesman and the only way we can talk to Jehovah is thru Jesus. He does this because we are imperfect and because of that we need a mediator.
Jesus will be this for us no doubt until he hands his fathers Kingdom back to him in the future. I wish you would had shared your thought on this but I guess not.
17 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidHow many saviours do you have?
@KellyJay
The Word is Jesus. He is Jehovah's spokesman and the only way we can talk to Jehovah is thru Jesus. He does this because we are imperfect and because of that we need a mediator.
Jesus will be this for us no doubt until he hands his fathers Kingdom back to him in the future. I wish you would had shared your thought on this but I guess not.
17 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidThere is no god beside God; He is the One and only. I'm not sure what you think I have left off, there is nothing about all the things I have said that has altered anything the Lord has done and done as a man. The things I've been telling you is that God is perfect in justice, holiness, righteousness, and in perfect harmony with Himself. He cannot have evil in the presence since we have fallen He did not create something or someone to kill so we could be redeemed, He took our punishment upon Himself and the Word became sin so He could in total righteousness save us from our sins taking them away from us. He being who He is could do it, no other could, that punishment for not just one but for all of us throughout time was paid for by God, for God not for us. God is our salvation, our justification, our righteousness, our redeemer, our Hope and our propitiation for our sins.
@KellyJay
The Word is Jesus. He is Jehovah's spokesman and the only way we can talk to Jehovah is thru Jesus. He does this because we are imperfect and because of that we need a mediator.
Jesus will be this for us no doubt until he hands his fathers Kingdom back to him in the future. I wish you would had shared your thought on this but I guess not.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Deuteronomy 4:34-36 English Standard Version (ESV)
Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs, by wonders, and by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by great deeds of terror, all of which the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. Out of heaven he let you hear his voice, that he might discipline you. And on earth he let you see his great fire, and you heard his words out of the midst of the fire.
17 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidI'm really not disagreeing with you on what Jehovah and his son Jesus are doing for mankind. That is not the issue at all. I thought this discussion was on the trinity and who the 3 person are and what they are.
There is no god beside God; He is the One and only. I'm not sure what you think I have left off, there is nothing about all the things I have said that has altered anything the Lord has done and done as a man. The things I've been telling you is that God is perfect in justice, holiness, righteousness, and in perfect harmony with Himself. He cannot have evil in the presence s ...[text shortened]... u. And on earth he let you see his great fire, and you heard his words out of the midst of the fire.
The scriptures I've posted are about that and there are still many that you haven't spoken about yet.
17 Jan 20
1 edit
@galveston75 saidIs Jesus the “Mighty God” who is referred to here?
I'm really not disagreeing with you on what Jehovah and his son Jesus are doing for mankind. That is not the issue at all. I thought this discussion was on the trinity and who the 3 person are and what they are.
The scriptures I've posted are about that and there are still many that you haven't spoken about yet.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
17 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidI have repeatedly told you that God did not create someone to pay for our sins. He took that payment on to Himself. Think about what it would be like had He done that the other way, created someone to kill them for the payment for our sins! If that is an acceptable answer, then every government in debt should create a debt coin and pay off the national debt! It all has to be right to satisfy the requirements of a Holy God.
I'm really not disagreeing with you on what Jehovah and his son Jesus are doing for mankind. That is not the issue at all. I thought this discussion was on the trinity and who the 3 person are and what they are.
The scriptures I've posted are about that and there are still many that you haven't spoken about yet.
Even King David said he would not sacrifice an offering to God that did not cost him.
17 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidYour posts are good I have to think about them, off the cuff answers would do them no justice.
I'm really not disagreeing with you on what Jehovah and his son Jesus are doing for mankind. That is not the issue at all. I thought this discussion was on the trinity and who the 3 person are and what they are.
The scriptures I've posted are about that and there are still many that you haven't spoken about yet.
17 Jan 20
1 edit
@sonship said"Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, (through) whom also He made the universe." (Heb. 1:2)
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Are there any other NT passages about Christ as Creator?
I would think to include the following, though some show Christ as the agent through whom are all things created. IMO it amounts to Him being the Creator.
"Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made ...[text shortened]... and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through Him." (1 Cor. 8:6)
" For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and (through) whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, ..." (Heb. 1:10)
"All things came into being (through) Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being." (John 1:3)
"Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones of lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created (through) Him and unto Him." (Col. 1:16,17)
"Yet to us there is one God, the Father, out from whom are all things, and we are unto Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, (through) whom are all things, and we are through Him." (1 Cor. 8:6)
*******************************************************************************
I'll try this again. Please whoever comments on this, just comment on this and don't jump off into some other direction.
If it was Jesus by himself, with no guidance or help or support, etc, from his Father, why is this word "through" in not only these scriptures but all others that are speaking of this?
Think, think, think about this word and what it means because it explains that yes Jesus was very involved in the creative process but this word "through" means what? Why is it there?
Some meanings, which would be used here for the word through is this:
at the hand of
in the name of
on
over
supported by
through
through the agency of
through the medium of
under the aegis of
via
with
with the assistance of
Notice a couple of the examples here of what the word through means. In Jesus's case every scripture says (through him, not from him.) The creative process always comes from his father Jehovah. None of the creation originated from Jesus. He is called clearly in the Bible Jehovah's helper not the creator. Jesus is God's son not the Almighty God and not equal to him........
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition Copyright © 2013 by the Philip Lief Group.
17 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidYou are right, he did not create Jesus to have to pay for our sins and then have to go thru the terrible death he endured. This is God's son here, his firstborn and was with his Father from eons ago helping to create the universe.
I have repeatedly told you that God did not create someone to pay for our sins. He took that payment on to Himself. Think about what it would be like had He done that the other way, created someone to kill them for the payment for our sins! If that is an acceptable answer, then every government in debt should create a debt coin and pay off the national debt! It all has to be ...[text shortened]... a Holy God.
Even King David said he would not sacrifice an offering to God that did not cost him.
No way Jehovah created him to go thru that humiliation and then to be nailed to a stake. Of course his Father did not create him for that. That would be somewhat cruel.
No different then the parents of some child here on earth conceiving a child just to sacrifice them later to some pagan religious belief.
But looking at this from an angle that I know the Bible is telling us is this: Remember Jesus was very involved in all creations including humans. Jehovah told Jesus "let's make man in our image". The bible does not say that there are other humans anywhere else in the universe. But only they would know that now. But the point is Jesus was right in the middle of creating humans, maybe for the first time ever creating humans.
So Jesus along with his father had to be beyond proud and very close to Adam & Eve. The Bible says Jehovah actually talked to Adam everyday. What an experience but that shows how close they were to humans.
Now to the point here. When man sinned there was now not going to be any hope for the life Jehovah had planned for them. They were made to live forever as well as their children. Jehovah knew instantly what had to be done to eventually save us from what Adam gave us. A perfect life had to be given to make a ransom regain exactly what was lost.
As I said once before any angel could have done what Jesus did. Angels could materialize as some did before the flood. Jehovah could have had an angel do exactly what Jesus did. Go to earth and give a perfect life as a human. But guess who volunteered? It would be the one that helped create us.
Why not Jehovah? The bible makes it clear, crystal clear that NO ONE can see him and live.
So yes you are right in most of what your saying, Good job but this is showing how much Jesus not only loves us but would do anything for his Father including giving his life.
17 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidThanks buddy. I've learned to ask questions, try to think out of the box some and try to use scriptures that really gets one to think from other angles. We have a book that's called "Reasoning from the Scriptures" which is a great tool to help us to slow down and really find all the scriptures throughout the Bible that refer to the subject in a scripture we may be talking about. It's always a learning process for sure.
Your posts are good I have to think about them, off the cuff answers would do them no justice.
17 Jan 20
@divegeester saidYes....
Is Jesus the “Mighty God” who is referred to here?
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
17 Jan 20
@divegeester saidWe only worship Jehovah............ We did not write the Bible. It calls Jesus a Might God so that's what he is..
Lovely, Jehovah's Witnesses have two Gods.