Hell + God = Nonsense

Originally posted by serigado
I'm going to be cruel.
Love is nothing more than an illusion created by men to try express in a word a group of complex feelings, that not even the best writers could transpose in their works. Feelings are real, are created by our mind, and doesn't make any sense that any God is the source of it. Even if God created everything, feelings belong to us the sa ...[text shortened]... hat people make of love, is their need to have something transcendental. I have no such needs.

I'm going to be loving.
To be honest, if you do not see a need to change you will not change. As for me, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit in terms of my "sins". I knew I had done wrong in the past and did not like a lot of what I had done in my own life. Don't get me wrong, I had never done anything worthy of imprisonment, so I guess in that sense you could say I was a "good" person. However, I knew I was a sinner nonetheless. I was confronted by a God who was not threatening me, rather, I was confronted by a God who humbled himself to come in the form of a man and die for my sins. He then came knocking at the door of my heart and I opened the door. I could have sent him away but I chose not to. I suppose I could have continued living a "good life" but deep down I knew I longed for better. I knew I could be better. I knew I just needed some help.

You are right that feelings are real. Love is real and our minds play a role is those things being real to us. However, who gave us our minds....

Originally posted by whodey
I'm going to be loving.
To be honest, if you do not see a need to change you will not change. As for me, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit in terms of my "sins". I knew I had done wrong in the past and did not like a lot of what I had done in my own life. Don't get me wrong, I had never done anything worthy of imprisonment, so I guess in that sense you c minds play a role is those things being real to us. However, who gave us our minds....

you know, the more I hear from you, the more i am touched by you, whodey. It is so refreshing to hear openness and exposure on this forum. We need more of it...

Peace be with you. Love is real.

I don't really want to spoil the moment by debating how our minds work and why - it doesn't really matter that much here.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
you know, the more I hear from you, the more i am touched by you, whodey. It is so refreshing to hear openness and exposure on this forum. We need more of it...

Peace be with you. Love is real.

I don't really want to spoil the moment by debating how our minds work and why - it doesn't really matter that much here.

Thanks man. Peace to you as well. 😉

Originally posted by SourJax
Yes, Hell in my estimation is a very bad place. But if you are viewing Hell as a place where Satan and his minions are torturing you with fire and pitchforks then you have received some wrong info. Hell is a place separated from God, it is surrounded by a lake of fire, so there is no escape. Once your there you are tormented by your own thoughts and memories ...[text shortened]... or the rest of your life, would you? Then why are you choosing to live in the prison your in?

You said that you are fine with the idea that you can go to Hell, be separated from God and be happy on your own; but are you happy now? Are you content to spend eternity with the same level of happiness you have right now? Do you not have any hope for something better than this life?
I'm happy. I'd spend eternity with this level of happiness. The descriptions I hear from Heaven don't make it a place I would like to be or be happy. I don't aspire for something better because better depends on ambition, and I'm realistic. As long as I'm healthy, I'm happy. As long as I have my mind and be aware, I'm happy.

I do, my hope is my Lord and God, Jesus the Christ; what's your's?
My hope is menkind, and what they can achieve. You say "but that depends on God". I say it depends on ourselves. I have hope in me and in my friends.

Serigado, you are a man of great faith. Your god is humanistic logic and reasoning. You are trapped in a prison of your own reasoning, because you refuse to acknowledge that it is reasonable to think that God could love you enough to allow the sacrifice of His Son for you.
I don't have any kind of faith. I know my reasoning can be wrong. But it's the only thing I can be sure to exist. There's also other people's reasoning. When I debate with them through logic, we arrive at conclusions, that are very often the same. Logic is right. I may me applying it wrongly, but logic IS correct, always. I could believe in a God, an abstract being not so ever related to the religious God's men invented. But he's not necessary, and although coherent, it's an artificial add-on. It's not reasonable to believe in the religious Gods. You are trapped in your own illusion / mental state you created from the need to be something more.

If you had the chance to come and live in the prison I work at for the rest of your life, would you? Then why are you choosing to live in the prison your in?
No, I wouldn't. It doesn't sound a very pleasant thing to do. I live in no prision. I am free to think whatever I conclude to be right. This is complete freedom! Prison is to take something as radical as your God to command your life and your decisions. You're the one who's being constrained from doing whatever you want. By fear, or by the promise of a better life, or whatever the reasons.

Originally posted by serigado
So , you must say that does who are departed from God are necessarily not good. I disagree.
And saying God is the source of all Good is very hard to swallow as an argument. You reach false conclusions that don't make sense. Maybe the premise is wrong?
And if I say I can be good without God, then you say I can't really know what Good is? That's a very closed point of view.

How do you judge what is good, by what you like or dislike?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
How do you judge what is good, by what you like or dislike?
Kelly

By what was taught to me during my life, my experiences, my debates with my friends, by society and their rules and laws. By what causes well being to me without causing grief to other beings. By what causes well being to other beings. Which that can achieve concordance and general satisfaction between pairs.

Originally posted by whodey
I'm going to be loving.
To be honest, if you do not see a need to change you will not change. As for me, I was convicted by the Holy Spirit in terms of my "sins". I knew I had done wrong in the past and did not like a lot of what I had done in my own life. Don't get me wrong, I had never done anything worthy of imprisonment, so I guess in that sense you c ...[text shortened]... minds play a role is those things being real to us. However, who gave us our minds....

So If people don't feel like wanting something more and are generally happy, they won't find God. Only finds God those who want to find it, who wants a better life.
It's good your beliefs made you a better person. Makes me feel religion can truly have some good things when well interpreted. Doesn't make it any more true of false, though. As for me, I only seek the truth. Love is real in our minds, just as God is in yours, and our minds weren't given by anyone. Our minds are simply the result of our growth and experiences.

Originally posted by serigado
By what was taught to me during my life, my experiences, my debates with my friends, by society and their rules and laws. By what causes well being to me without causing grief to other beings. By what causes well being to other beings. Which that can achieve concordance and general satisfaction between pairs.

So and this is important how do you know they gave you the truth?
If you grew up in a country where certain beliefs were taught as the
truth, you think your beliefs would be different? After all you got your
views by those around you, you just admitted, so how do you know?
Do you think truth changes with the country or community you grew up
in or is there truth that goes to covers it all, no matter where or when
you grew up? If there is such a truth, does it than stand to reason it is
not man made, or dependent upon human acknowledgement would we
not be bound to it no matter what, even if we reject it since it isn’t
dependent upon humanity? If good were also like that can we than
assume that no matter what people thought of themselves they could
be in error because of that? If judgment was rendered to that
standard would it matter what we thought of ourselves our how well
our standing was with friends, family, and society?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So and this is important how do you know they gave you the truth?
If you grew up in a country where certain beliefs were taught as the
truth, you think your beliefs would be different? After all you got your
views by those around you, you just admitted, so how do you know?
Do you think truth changes with the country or community you grew up
in or is th ...[text shortened]... we thought of ourselves our how well
our standing was with friends, family, and society?
Kelly

But I never talked about truth. It may not be true at all, but it's what we define as good. What good is it to follow something that is the "true good" if it doesn't make us feel well??
I got the views from those around me, but I didn't limit to copy them. I criticized them, looked for new views, in a dynamical process of evolution of self.
I don't know where is the origin of the referential, the best references we have is human experience. We maybe a little deviated, but SO what? As long as we all feel good with that. The society and environment defines who we are. I am not trying to find something absolute.
That's why I respect the notion of "good" indians from the Amazon have, although I strongly disagree. It's their society, they do whatever they want. Christians, by the other side, tried to wipe them out of the face of the Earth because the Indians beliefs make them sick and were "against God".
IN resume, Good is not absolute.

Originally posted by serigado
But I never talked about truth. It may not be true at all, but it's what we define as good. What good is it to follow something that is the "true good" if it doesn't make us feel well??
I got the views from those around me, but I didn't limit to copy them. I criticized them, looked for new views, in a dynamical process of evolution of self.
I don't know w ...[text shortened]... ans beliefs make them sick and were "against God".
IN resume, Good is not absolute.

So if good is not absolute, then there isn't any real good you can
put forward that you can hold all to? Since good with some is not
the same as good with you, your version of 'true good' does not
apply to others? Trying to figure this out from your stand point.
Kelly

Originally posted by serigado
So If people don't feel like wanting something more and are generally happy, they won't find God. Only finds God those who want to find it, who wants a better life.
It's good your beliefs made you a better person. Makes me feel religion can truly have some good things when well interpreted. Doesn't make it any more true of false, though. As for me, I only ...[text shortened]... nds weren't given by anyone. Our minds are simply the result of our growth and experiences.

Don't get me wrong, I would'nt say I was miserable exactly before I converted, rather, I felt drawn to a better way. Having said that, you are right in that if you do not feel a need or desire for change you will not pursue such change. This holds true for most anything.

As far as it being the truth, all I can say is it has been in my life.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]If the dilemma remains, then it is not a question of whether free will condemns serigado (or me) to hell, but whether or not (1) Christ’s sacrifice of free will still allows serigado to be condemned

So if a person lives a life of sin without repentance, and wants nothing to do with God (i.e., nothing to do with self-surrender), God should viola t my free will I could not offer myself to the Lord the same way He offered Himself to me.[/b]

Yes, my free will is worth another's condemnation, because without my free will I could not offer myself to the Lord the same way He offered Himself to me.

Long Post Deleted.

__________________________________

I’m going to surprise you: I don’t think that’s an entirely off-base answer.

If my free-will (however one defines that; I just think in terms of the ability to make choices under constraint) is what allows me to love my wife, and allow her to love me, then that free will is worth (to me) your condemnation. It is even worth mine. However—and here is the dilemma—my free will is not worth (to me) her condemnation. You see, I keep trying to put your God in the position of lover; he keeps insisting on being the only-beloved. His sacrifice is ultimately only for those who believe in him—who love him back.

Presumably—despite all the arguments about whether God sends people to hell, or they do it themselves—your God created hell just for the purpose of eternal torment for all those who don’t believe in him. Your God is a jealous God; and jealousy is a drawback to love. A jealous love is a lower-level love than one that is not.

Now, I don’t believe in your God, as you are well aware. But even if I did, I could not call him “love”. I confess that, the longer we go round and round about this, I just don’t like your God very much. If I were compelled by some knowledge, that I now do not have, to believe in him, I still wouldn’t like him very much. If I believed in your God, I might be afraid of him. But I could not love him. Not because I love too little, but because (even in my own small way) I love too much. I cannot love your God who refuses to take unto himself all those that I love, just because they do not believe in him.

If your God is real (and I have no reason to believe that he is), then, as you say: sad but true.

Originally posted by serigado
[b]You said that you are fine with the idea that you can go to Hell, be separated from God and be happy on your own; but are you happy now? Are you content to spend eternity with the same level of happiness you have right now? Do you not have any hope for something better than this life?
I'm happy. I'd spend eternity with this level of happiness. The d ...[text shortened]... t. By fear, or by the promise of a better life, or whatever the reasons.[/b]

Then you have my pity.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So if good is not absolute, then there isn't any real good you can
put forward that you can hold all to? Since good with some is not
the same as good with you, your version of 'true good' does not
apply to others? Trying to figure this out from your stand point.
Kelly

Correct. What I may consider "good" may not apply to others. That's why we have different countries with different cultures.
"Good" is relative. And that's why saying god is the source of good doesn't make any sense. And saying that not being with god we can't be good even worse.

Originally posted by SourJax
Then you have my pity.

Pity??
You pity someone who is miserable, not someone who is happy.