Originally posted by dj2beckerOkay, we may be approaching something like non-contradiction here.
False on both counts. I think it is a lot more complicated than that.
I would suggest the following Biblical perspective:
1. God is Just, Holy, Righteous.
2. Therefore it follows that God will punish sin.
3. But God is also love.
4. Therefore it follows that God payed the price for man to be able to be justifed before Him and forgiven of their sin ...[text shortened]... rgives you of your sin.
7. Rejecting God's way means God punishes for your unforgiven sin.
So, God will NOT forgive me unless I accept him? He WILL punish me instead.
But he WILL forgive me if I do accept him. And he WON'T punish me.
Note that now, contrary to what you previously asserted, God is not first forgiving me and then punishing me, which isn't possible for conceptual reasons--and which at least puts us in the land of sense.
So, God is just because He punishes unrepentant sinners, and merciful because he forgives repentant sinners. Good for Him!
I have to say, though, that He is still failing to maximize his mercifulness by asserting his justice. He would be more merciful if we also forgave the unrepentant sinners. That would be something to praise Him for! But because He chooses to assert His justice, he is less merciful than he might otherwise be, as his justice, in this instance, appears to be asserted by sending unrepentant sinners to hell.
The moral of the story is that God cannot simultaneously maximize the goods of justice (as you define it, at least) and mercy.
As I think mercy is diagnostic of being loving, I don't think you God is particularly loving.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
Originally posted by NordlysGreat.
Quote Pawnokeyhole: "I don't think X can forgive Y for doing Z and then punish Y for doing Z." I don't know what's so hard to understand about this. Obviously, X and Y are intelligent life forms, and Z is an act which in X's eyes is wrong. In case of God sending people to hell, X is God, Y is a person, and Z is a sin.
X= God
Y= Person
Z= Sin
X has forbidden Y to do Z. If Y does Z he will be punished by X. But X is programmed in such a way that that he cannot forgive Y if Y does not stop doing Z. So if Y stops doing Z, Y will be forgiven by X. But if Y does not stop doing Z, he cannot be forgiven by X, because X has been programed that way.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
2 edits
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWhose moral law are you using to judge God's mercy?
Okay, we may be approaching something like non-contradiction here.
So, God will NOT forgive me unless I accept him? He WILL punish me instead.
But he WILL forgive me if I do accept him. And he WON'T punish me.
Note that now, contrary to what you previously asserted, God is not first forgiving me and then punishing me, which isn't possible for c ...[text shortened]... As I think mercy is diagnostic of being loving, I don't think you God is particularly loving.
Greater love hath no man that to lay down his life for his friends. The very reason why you know what love means, is because of what God did for mankind through his Son.
Originally posted by dj2beckerGod is programmed? Who's the programmer? Muffy?
Great.
X= God
Y= Person
Z= Sin
X has forbidden Y to do Z. If Y does Z he will be punished by X. But X is programmed in such a way that that he cannot forgive Y if Y does not stop doing Z. So if Y stops doing Z, Y will be forgiven by X. But if Y does not stop doing Z, he cannot be forgiven by X, because X has been programed that way.
Originally posted by dj2beckerSo stopping to do Z is enough to be forgiven? You don't actually have to repent?
Great.
X= God
Y= Person
Z= Sin
X has forbidden Y to do Z. If Y does Z he will be punished by X. But X is programmed in such a way that that he cannot forgive Y if Y does not stop doing Z. So if Y stops doing Z, Y will be forgiven by X. But if Y does not stop doing Z, he cannot be forgiven by X, because X has been programed that way.
Originally posted by dj2becker6. Accepting God's way means God forgives you of your sin.
False on both counts. I think it is a lot more complicated than that.
I would suggest the following Biblical perspective:
1. God is Just, Holy, Righteous.
2. Therefore it follows that God will punish sin.
3. But God is also love.
4. Therefore it follows that God payed the price for man to be able to be justifed before Him and forgiven of their sin ...[text shortened]... rgives you of your sin.
7. Rejecting God's way means God punishes for your unforgiven sin.
7. Rejecting God's way means God punishes for your unforgiven sin.
Not exactly. As the payment for sin has already been made by the Christ, no one ever is punished for sin. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the only book that is opened is the Book of Works. Because those who have rejected Christ have opted to face perfect righteousness on their own merit, their works are considered. Not surprisingly, all of those whose names are written in the Book of Works are found wanting; sans the perfect righteousness required to be with God, they are cast into the Lake of Fire.
- Joined
- 01 Oct 04
- Moves
- 12095
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeBy assuming a moral law, you are assuming a moral lawgiver, by assuming a moral lawgiver, you are assuming the existance of God. Is it not His existance you are trying to disprove?
One most decent, reasonable human beings understand. What one are you using?
Originally posted by dj2beckerFrom Wikipedia: "Repentance is the feeling and act in which one recognizes and tries to right a wrong, or gain forgiveness from someone that they wronged. In religious contexts it usually refers to repenting for a sin against God. It always includes an admission of guilt, and also includes at least one of: a solemn promise or resolve not to repeat the offense; an attempt to make restitution for the wrong, or in some way to reverse the harmful effects of the wrong where possible."
How pray can you stop sinning if you do not repent?
I can stop doing something without recognizing that what I did was wrong, without trying to gain forgiveness, without admitting guilt, without a solemn promise or resolve not to repeat the offense, and without an attempt to make restitution for the wrong or reverse the harmful effects.
Originally posted by dj2beckerIf I assume a natural law, like gravitation, am I assuming a natural lawgiver? No.
By assuming a moral law, you are assuming a moral lawgiver, by assuming a moral lawgiver, you are assuming the existance of God. Is it not His existance you are trying to disprove?
Similarly, if I assume a moral law, do I not assume a moral lawgiver? No.
So your argument is invalid.
In any case, I am only using the phrase "natural law" loosely. I mean something like "widely shared and uncontroversial moral intuition".
Originally posted by FreakyKBHBit pointless to open the Book of Works then. Do you think God does so for His own perverse amusement?
[b]6. Accepting God's way means God forgives you of your sin.
7. Rejecting God's way means God punishes for your unforgiven sin.
Not exactly. As the payment for sin has already been made by the Christ, no one ever is punished for sin. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, the only book that is opened is the Book of Works. Because those who have rejecte ...[text shortened]... ; sans the perfect righteousness required to be with God, they are cast into the Lake of Fire.[/b]