Originally posted by jaywillHis arguments are reasonable. You are the one unteachable because you are in the depths of profound religious brainwashing. You and a few billion others so I am not just dinging you, just most of the human race.
The depth of VoidSpirit's unteachability and ignorance is just about fathomless. For this reason I do not like to waste my time engaging him.
For anyone else's sake though, who wants me to respond to this last post ?
Preferably someone whose mind is not on total padlocked and closedness like VoidSpirit's.
I do not like to go down that road with th ...[text shortened]... Sickening the other.
Does anyone want me to address this last diatribe of this poster ?
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Exodus 21
7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry h ...[text shortened]... ils in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Exodus 21
7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.
10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
I will focus here only on the matter of alledged sex slavery.
"If a man sells his daughter as a female servant, she shall not go out as the make servants do." (v.7)
What is it about this verse which suggests to you that the PURPOSE of the selling of this daughter as a female servant is for the sexual exploitation of the buyer ? I see nothing in the passage suggesting anything else besides the household service being the intention of the transaction.
This kind of selling of the daughters happened in the time of Nehemiah. Nothing about sexual exploitation is mentioned there either:
"And there were some who said, We have borrowed money against our fields and our vinyards for the king's tribute. Yet now our flesh is like the flesh of our brothers, our children like their children; and now we are bringing our sons and daughters into bondage as slaves. And some of our daughters have already been brought into bondage; and it is not in our power to deliver them, for our fields and vineyards belong to others." (Nehemiah 5:5)
An ideal situation it is not because of dept and poverty. However, no sexual exploitation is indicated here, as they acted in accordance with the Law given in Exodus. Until you can prove to me that this selling is for the purpose of sexual exploitation I assume you are only inserting that purely out of your imagination.
But let's go on.
"If she displeases her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he has no right to sell her to a foreign peoplee, because he has dealt with her unfaithfully." (v.8)
This is provision for the selling of a daughter to a man who subsequently MARRIES the woman. The SEX SLAVE is a woman used purely for sexual exploitation out of the lust of a man. This is not the case here. The master who bought the female slave was either a widower or a single man.
The evidence of this is that the Bible says " because he has dealt with her UNFAITHFULLY ".
No exploiting master in American slavery, who went out at night to the slave quarters to have sex with a woman slave would ever consider anything UNFAITHFUL was or could be done to her. The oppressive lustful slave master owes the exploited slave woman NOTHING.
Here in Exodus 21 a contractural matter has been broken and so the violator, the master husband, is refered to as having treated the WIFE slave "unfaithfully."
What in the world do you expect the master could do unfaithfully to a sex slave ? Break his promise to rape her five nights a week by only forcing himself on her two nights ? The widowed of single man has MARRIED the woman who is his female servant. And this is a provision NOT encouraging anything. Rather it is discribing - what to do when one finds himself in that situation. ie. "If such and such scenario arrises this is how to proceed"
"And if he designate her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he take another woman for himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her MARITAL RIGHTS." (v.10)
The situation, granted, is less than ideal. But the tenor of it is apparently provision to protect the woman.
1.) he shall let her be redeemed (v.8)
2.) he has no right to sell her to foreigners (v.8)
3.) he has dealt with her unfaithfully (v.8)
4.) he is to deal with her as his own daughter (v.8)
5.) he shall not diminish her food (v.10)
6.) he shall not diminish her clothing (v.10)
7.) he shall not diminish her marital rights (v.10)
"And if he does not do these three things [feed, cloth, preserve marital rights] for her, then shall she go out for nothing, without payment of silver." (v. 11)
There may be some question about giving the wife slave to his son. However I have to take into account the Levitical law concerning a father and son having the same woman sexually:
"Then Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them, I am Jehovah your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, in which you dwelt; and you shall not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you, nor shall you walk [edited] in their statutes." (Lev. 18:1)
"None of you shall approach to any of his close relatives to uncover their nakedness; I am Jehovah. The nakedness of your father's wife you shall not uncover; it is your father's nakedness," (vs.6,7)
This passage makes is more unlikely that your specimen refers to a father providing his own sex slave to his son.
And then there are the regulations about violating a woman which I will not include here. So I think you do not have an example of God endorsing sex slavery.
The situation is less than ideal. And there is no guarantee that a married man may not be over indulgent about not exercising self control over his lust in his own married relationship. But I do not see here an endorsement by God that a woman be sold to a man purely for sexual oppression.
God is just and God is righteous.
Originally posted by jaywillSomeone who can be sold to another person is a slave. Someone who is forced to marry her master obviously must sleep with her master. All you have done is show that the sex slave trade in Israel had some regulations built in.
[quote] Exodus 21
7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to ma ...[text shortened]... n purely for sexual oppression.
God is just and God is righteous.
That is a convenient way for the oppressor to rationalize his oppression.
thus far jaywill has rationalized the slave trade as being acceptable since it was regulated.
he has failed to show anywhere that biblegod condemns the practice of slavery, suggesting instead that biblegod made accommodation to human standards by suggesting the hebrew practice was somewhat fairer than other surrounding civilizations (unconfirmed).
making such accommodations is not something biblegod is in the habit of doing.
hundreds of 'thou shalt nots' in the bible. not one 'thou shalt not' concerning human trafficking.
bad biblegod. bad. 😠
Originally posted by SwissGambit
Someone who can be sold to another person is a slave. Someone who is forced to marry her master obviously must sleep with her master. All you have done is show that the sex slave trade in Israel had some regulations built in.
That is a convenient way for the oppressor to rationalize his oppression.
Someone who can be sold to another person is a slave. Someone who is forced to marry her master obviously must sleep with her master. All you have done is show that the sex slave trade in Israel had some regulations built in.
That is a convenient way for the oppressor to rationalize his oppression.
I mentioned before that we talk of a baseball player or a basketball player as being "owned" by a team, "sold" to another team, and "bought" by another team. The usage of the words does not convey that such a sports person is nothing more than material property.
And YOU can rationalize oppression if you really want to. Just as you can rationalize God ordained promiscuity which you are trying to do. Taking everything into consideration your case does not stand up very well.
Your criticism also ASSUMES that the Israelite has absolutely no integrity and that the Israelite judges are stupid and blind. Neither of these assumptions can be insisted upon.
The patriarch Job expressed a godly attitude towards his servants - "If I have denied justice to my menservants and maidservants when they had a grievance against me, what will I do when God confronts me ? What will I answer when called to account? Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers." (Job 31:13-15)
Why should I assume that there were no Hebrew masters who were as God fearing as Job ? This is not an expectation that there were no instances of unrighteous masters in Israel. That would not be realistic. But there is no reason that God purposely instituted and endorsed bad behavior.
The Anchor Bible Dictionary comments on this verse in Job - "We have in the Bible the first appeals in world liturature to treat slaves as human beings for their own sake and not just in the interests of their masters."
God instructed how to proceed when a master of a slave desired to have that slave for a WIFE. If that situation occurs, and THAT is how it must be in Israel, "this is the manner in which you should proceed."
By comparison, "the idea of a slave as exclusively the object of rights and as a person outside regular society was aparentlyu alien to the lawsd of the rest of the ANE," What occured in other ANE societies was forcible branding, tatooing for identification in constrast to God's instructions in Exodus 21:5-6 .
the regulated slave trade.
foreigners you buy are yours forever, and they can be passed on as inheritance.
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
you can only keep hebrew slaves for 6 years.
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him.
but wait, don't fret. there is a way to keep your hebrew slaves forever too. just gift him a woman slave (i bet she doesn't have a choice in marrying this male slave), then hold her and any children he has hostage:
If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
compare this to the much more moral code of hammurabi where a slave must be released after 3 years.
and woe if you are a female slave...the regulated sex slave trade as mentioned earlier (and by others).
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
i don't see anywhere in there where the woman slave can say "nope" to being married to one of the master's sons or the master himself.
you can beat slaves... as long as they don't die withing a day or two.
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
i wonder if it's a day... or two? looks like there is some wiggle room for the abusive master there. maybe he can bribe the judge.
then comes christ. now here is an opportunity to end the absurd practice of human trafficking forever. and he says...
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
aw! what a missed opportunity. i guess christ hadn't quite caught up with modern moral standards.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThe kind of slavery you are talking about was covered in the punishment for kidnapping. This is what happened to Joseph and in later times the Africans and then they were sold into slavery. God interferred in history to set the Israelites free of slavery from the Egyptians as an example of His views on the matter. Voluntary slavery (servitude) to pay off debt owed is a different matter. You are confusing the two on purpose or because you are a numbnuts.
thus far jaywill has rationalized the slave trade as being acceptable since it was regulated.
he has failed to show anywhere that biblegod condemns the practice of slavery, suggesting instead that biblegod made accommodation to human standards by suggesting the hebrew practice was somewhat fairer than other surrounding civilizations (unconfirmed ...[text shortened]... he bible. not one 'thou shalt not' concerning human trafficking.
bad biblegod. bad. 😠
Originally posted by RJHindsyep, it's confirmed. you have no idea what you're talking about.
The kind of slavery you are talking about was covered in the punishment for kidnapping. This is what happened to Joseph and in later times the Africans and then they were sold into slavery. God interferred in history to set the Israelites free of slavery from the Egyptians as an example of His views on the matter. Voluntary slavery (servitude) to pay off ...[text shortened]... owed is a different matter. You are confusing the two on purpose or because you are a numbnuts.
Originally posted by jaywillA man can't sell his son to a baseball team, now, can he? (Let's leave aside that 'owning' a player's contract and 'owning' a human being as a piece of property are completely different uses of the word 'own'.)Someone who can be sold to another person is a slave. Someone who is forced to marry her master obviously must sleep with her master. All you have done is show that the sex slave trade in Israel had some regulations built in.
That is a convenient way for the oppressor to rationalize his oppression.
I mentioned before that we talk g for identification in constrast to God's instructions in [b]Exodus 21:5-6 .[/b]
God indeed ordained promiscuity. But that is a discussion for another time. For this one, I do not care if the slaveholder never had sex with any other woman but his sex slave. It's still wrong.
Your criticism also ASSUMES that the Israelite has absolutely no integrity and that the Israelite judges are stupid and blind.False.
Let's keep the focus on God and his 'morals', shall we? Exodus 21 are his words, not those of a man. The fact remains that a Israeli man could buy someone's daughter and force her into a marriage with him if he wished, with explicit Divine sanction. I am sure some Israelites refrained from doing this because they knew it was not right. Sadly, this makes their moral code superior to that of their own God in that respect.
Bully for Job treating his slaves well. Ben Franklin eventually saw reason and freed his slaves. That did not excuse those who kept their slaves and continued their participation in an evil and cruel system.
A God-mandated moral system should not be comparable with the most heinous examples of other slavery around the world. It should not be merely a slightly lesser degree of evil - it should be the opposite of evil.
So let's step back and view a longer section of God's instructions on indentured servitude and see if the "God endorses Slavery" crowd has a case. It seems these critics want to re-argue the anti-abolitionists slave holding religionists of the American South. They seem to long to justify the Confederate States worn over Bible arguments.
From Leviticus 25
And if your brother [fellow Hebrew] becomes poor, and he is unable to support himself as he lives beside you, then you shall support him, like a stranger and a sojourner, so that he may live beside you." (v.35)
No instructions here to kidnap anyone or forcibly engage him in slavery. The call is to support him not to enslave him.
"Do not take any interest or gain from him, but fear your God, so that your brother may live beside you." (v.36)
No man-stealing or forced servitude yet endorsed by God.
"You shall not give him your money at interest nor give him your food for gain. I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan." (v.27,28)
God's instruction here are to not charge interest for the support rendered to the fellow Hebrew neighbor who has fallen into poverty.
"And if your brother beside you becomes poor, AND HE SELLS HIMSELF TO YOU, you shall not make him serve as a slave." (v.29)
The poverty stricken Hebrew brother decides to SELL HIMSELF to make money and avoid starvation. He SELLS HIMSELF to another Israelite. This of course is not kidnapping but a contractural arrangement. And how is the buyer to treat the one bought ?
" ... you shall not make him serve as a slave."
This should be enough to clarify that the chattel slavery of the Antlantic Slave trade is not paralleled in the Law given to Israel by God. But we are dealing so far with Isreali on Israeli treatment. Israeli on foreigner will not be neglected.
"He shall be beside you as a hired servant, as a sojournor; he shall serve beside you until the year of jubilee." (v.40)
It would be interesting to ask Fredrick Douglas or Harriet Tubman if any black African slave served beside his white master as a hired servant, expecting to be freed in seven years. I think they would answer in the definite negative. No such humane treatment existed in the Southern Slavery.
"Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and return to his own family, and he shall return to the possession of his forefathers." (v.41)
It would be interesting to ask Fredrick Douglas if any such African slaves could return to Africa to their forefathers with his wife and children. He certainly could NOT return to his own family and possessions of his forefathers.
But the "God endorses Slavery" crowd want to twist the Bible with an "Aha!" and portray God as pro-slavery antebellum style.
"For they are My servants, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; THEY SHALL NOT BE SOLD AS SLAVES ARE SOLD" (v.42)
The Jews were to be mindful that all the Hebrews belong to the God who redeemed them out of slavery in Egypt.
"You shall not rule over him with severity, but you shall fear your God." (v.43)
The servant was NOT to be ruled over with SEVERITY. Does that sound like the slavery of the Southern US, Carribean, or European slave trade ? "Don't rule over the slave with severity ?"
See also verse 46 " ... But you shall not rule over your brothers the children of Israel, one over another, with SEVERITY" (v.46)
"And as for your male slaves and female slaves whom you may have, they shall come from the nations that are around you; from them you may BUY make slaves and female slaves." (v.44)
Obviously, in the land of Canaan, the people of the nations which were not dispersed COULD furnish to be slaves BOUGHT - NOT KIDNAPPED - by the Hebrews from those left over surrounding nations.
Now notice something totally unparelleled in American slavery. There is provision in the Law for a Hebrew who sells himself to be a servant to one of the Gentiles living in the good land !
" And if a STRANGER or SOJOURNOR with you CAN AFFORD IT, and your BROTHER [ie. fellow Hebrew] beside him becomes poor and SELLS HIMSELF to the stranger or sojournor with you, or to the descendents of the stranger's family; After he has sold himself, he may be redeemed; one of his BROTHERS may redeem him, or his uncle or his uncle's son may redeem him, or any of his close relatives of his family may redeem him; of if he can afford it, he may redeem himself." (vs. 47-49)
Here Yahweh makes provision for an ironic but possible situation. Some Hebrew is forced by his poverty or dept to sell himself into dept servitude to a non-Hebrew stranger or sojournor left in the good land after the conquest of the Hebrews.
I already showed a verse that a runaway slave from a foreigner should not be returned to his master. The Hebrews were to give the fugitive runaway slave from a foreign nation refuge.
God is just and God is righteous.
Originally posted by jaywillso your main big argument is that slavery in the hebrew system was not as bad as it could be.
God is just and God is righteous.
that doesn't make biblegod just and righteous. it makes him as just and righteous and a human living 4000 years ago with outdated moral standards.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritPlease stop acting so ignorant.
so your main big argument is that slavery in the hebrew system was not as bad as it could be.
that doesn't make biblegod just and righteous. it makes him as just and righteous and a human living 4000 years ago with outdated moral standards.
Originally posted by jaywillYeah. Quoting this makes Ex 21 go away. Right.
So let's step back and view a longer section of God's instructions on indentured servitude and see if the "God endorses Slavery" crowd has a case. It seems these critics want to re-argue the anti-abolitionists slave holding religionists of the American South. They seem to long to justify the Confederate States worn over Bible arguments.
From [b]Leviticus eign nation refuge.
God is just and God is righteous.[/b]
Which passage do you think the oppressor would quote; yours, or Ex 21?
God is bizarro-just and bizarro-righteous.
Originally posted by SwissGambitAre you referring to the following one?
Yeah. Quoting this makes Ex 21 go away. Right.
Which passage do you think the oppressor would quote; yours, or Ex 21?
God is bizarro-just and bizarro-righteous.
Now these are the judgments which you shall set before them: If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing.
(Exodus 21:1-2 NKJV)
He goes free after 6 years of service.