I'm glad I don't know my purpose. If I knew my purpose I would just have to get on with it ike a robot obeying it's progamming. I see philosophical debate as a celebration of the fact we don't know why we are here.
The not-knowing is what makes life interesting, and leads to the incredible variety amongst people. The not-knowing enriches all our lives. For example, it would be really depressing if it turned out that the Christian God actually existed and now we all knew what we had to do.
Originally posted by MarinkatombThose who claim there needn't be a reason for our existence are simply expressing their cowardice toward the issue you are courageously facing. Those thoughts we have when we are alone with ourselves and without anything left to distract our honesty conflict with the stance that it (life) is all meaningless.
I exist. The more i think about it, the more ridiculous it is. What is my purpose other than procreation and what is the point in that anyway?
Recently i have been finding this terrifying. As i think about my existence and how improbable it is, i imagine what it is not to exist also. I find this is having the effect that my consciousness splutters an ...[text shortened]... thing! Do other people feel the same way? Is this normal? It's driving me to distraction.
Solomon went through a needless moral quagmire of self-indulgence and abandoned pursuit of pleasure before coming to the same crossroads you have reached. Namely, that there has to be something more than the issues of life--- whether spent in quite simplicity or wild laciviousness.
God (ever the gentleman) allows you to make that decision for yourself.
Originally posted by FreakyKBHNo they don't, you may be happy to consider that asking the question implies an answer but I am not. Just because you think about the meaning of existence it does not follow that there is one. There's no courage or cowardice here either, merely the wandering of one's mind, stop making a song and dance out of a begged question.
Those who claim there needn't be a reason for our existence are simply expressing their cowardice toward the issue you are courageously facing. Those thoughts we have when we are alone with ourselves and without anything left to distract our honesty conflict with the stance that it (life) is all meaningless.
Solomon went through a needless moral quagmi ...[text shortened]... wild laciviousness.
God (ever the gentleman) allows you to make that decision for yourself.
Originally posted by twiceaknightHypothetically I can see exactly what you are saying but in reality this could not be further from the truth. God is the biggest adventure possible.
I'm glad I don't know my purpose. If I knew my purpose I would just have to get on with it ike a robot obeying it's progamming. I see philosophical debate as a celebration of the fact we don't know why we are here.
The not-knowing is what makes life interesting, and leads to the incredible variety amongst people. The not-knowing enriches all our liv ...[text shortened]... it turned out that the Christian God actually existed and now we all knew what we had to do.
Originally posted by ahosyneyGod told Adam and Eve that if they partook of the fruit they will surely die. So what do you think? They partook of the fruit and they died. There is no way around it. So what specifically involves this "death" God was warning them about? Was it merely a spiritual death he was talking about and not a physical death? Where Adam and Eve going to die physically whether they partook of the fruit or not?
Do you still belive that we die because we sin?
I'm really very confused...
The logic here makes no sense. God must have been talking about a physcial death because you said yourself that Adam later repented and God forgave him so where was his spiritual death? God told him he was going to die so if God forgave him he did not die spiritually so did God change his mind and spare him? Does God make false threats?
Originally posted by MarinkatombAm i discovering God?
I exist. The more i think about it, the more ridiculous it is. What is my purpose other than procreation and what is the point in that anyway?
Recently i have been finding this terrifying. As i think about my existence and how improbable it is, i imagine what it is not to exist also. I find this is having the effect that my consciousness splutters an thing! Do other people feel the same way? Is this normal? It's driving me to distraction.
I cannot answer that question. You may be. Or you may be simply following your prior philosophy to its logical end.
As a Christian, my answer would be that your affective responses are a result of the Spirit working in you, inviting you to return to God. You can choose to reject the invitation, or accept it and see where it goes. It may not lead you to a notion of God you are familiar with, but that's part of the process.
However, I will say this -- if you simply return to religion out of fear (as you put it), you will not find yourself satisfied with the outcome. You cannot run away from what you're feeling (and simply refusing to admit it exists and consequently ignoring it is also a form of running away); you'll need to work through and with (!) them.
Originally posted by ahosyneyPerhaps I should rephrase my question - need there be an external purpose?
Yes, there should be a purpose. Other wise why do you live. Even if it is not a divin purpose, but there should be a purpose.
I think any one commite suicide , he do that when he don't find the purpose of his life.
I belive our life has a purpose, and that purpose is never ending, which give our life a continues meaning. But the proplems for many peop ...[text shortened]... rpose requires many obligations that they don't want to accept , because of the pride ,may be.
I don't need one. I don't go around looking for some meaning in the universe, something to make my life complete, since I don't believe it exists.
The universe just is. Meaningless, purposeless.
I create the purpose for my life.
That's why I go on living.
Originally posted by StarrmanI agree with you here but i'm not sure you've thought about this deeply enough.
No they don't, you may be happy to consider that asking the question implies an answer but I am not. Just because you think about the meaning of existence it does not follow that there is one. There's no courage or cowardice here either, merely the wandering of one's mind, stop making a song and dance out of a begged question.
If you consider the philosophical problem of the ship that is maintained over many years. Each year a part of the ship is removed and replaced with a new part. Enough years pass until all of the parts have been replaced anew. The old parts that are no longer part of the ship are then reassembled to make a ship. Which ship is the original ship?
Now apply this thought to yourself. You are a collection of atoms that are collected together to form you. They are constantly being replaced with new atoms which means you are not the same thing from one moment to the next. When i think about this as i have for some time now, i realise that it is absurd to consider yourself as an individual that is separate from the people and objects that surround you. We are all part of something much deeper than is immediately obvious, which brings me back to religion. This is spirituality, and i experience it deeply, whether i am worshipping a deity or not. The more my thoughts develop towards understanding (or lack of it as the case may be...), the more terrifying the whole thing is. I do not know why, but the thought that this is all just some crazy fluke scares the nuts out of me. My brain needs to feel secure in my beliefs and it doesn't. Perhaps these are just chemical emotions brought on by instinct to find safety. Whatever it is, it's getting in the way of my understanding.
How is there any space for the Universe to exist? The fact that it started is incredible, but the fact there was somewhere for it to start at all is too much for my tiny brain to get around.
Originally posted by MarinkatombIt's interesting that what scares the crap out of you, fascinates many others, myself included. This is what drives human curiosity.
I agree with you here but i'm not sure you've thought about this deeply enough.
If you consider the philosophical problem of the ship that is maintained over many years. Each year a part of the ship is removed and replaced with a new part. Enough years pass until all of the parts have been replaced anew. The old parts that are no longer part of the s ...[text shortened]... fact there was somewhere for it to start at all is too much for my tiny brain to get around.
I get my spirituality from the very thing that seems to scare you - the wonder and meaninglessness of the universe.
Originally posted by lucifershammerI understand now how people turn to the Church. I have not understood this urge before and i feel this has been a constructive process, if for no other reason than to help me understand my fellow man. However, I simply cannot believe that an all powerful being capable of creating the Universe would wish to be worshipped. It makes no sense, what possible purpose does this serve? God has an ego?
[b]Am i discovering God?
I cannot answer that question. You may be. Or you may be simply following your prior philosophy to its logical end.
As a Christian, my answer would be that your affective responses are a result of the Spirit working in you, inviting you to return to God. You can choose to reject the invitation, or accept it and see w ...[text shortened]... y ignoring it is also a form of running away); you'll need to work through and with (!) them.[/b]
The point i am at is outlined in my above post. I am an instance of something that has been growing and changing since the beginning of time. I am a thinking link in the chain that is holding two ends together. I wish to understand this reality, to be able to exist on this plain if you will. My atoms are ancient, they have been many things before they were me, so it follows that I am ancient. I have been many things before. Why are these atoms suddenly self aware? The answer is somewhere in my head already, i just need to remember it.
Originally posted by amannionDon't misunderstand me, I feel exactly as you do on this. When i say it scares me, i am probing my feelings. When i am honest with myself., this is an underlying emotional response to the realisation that we're completely at the mercy of fortune. Our existence can end at any given moment. The fear i feel is attached to my desire to understand, i want to know what i am before i'm something else. I'll probably never get another shot at it!
It's interesting that what scares the crap out of you, fascinates many others, myself included. This is what drives human curiosity.
I get my spirituality from the very thing that seems to scare you - the wonder and meaninglessness of the universe.
Originally posted by MarinkatombHowever, I simply cannot believe that an all powerful being capable of creating the Universe would wish to be worshipped. It makes no sense, what possible purpose does this serve? God has an ego? MARINKA
I understand now how people turn to the Church. I have not understood this urge before and i feel this has been a constructive process, if for no other reason than to help me understand my fellow man. However, I simply cannot believe that an all powerful being capable of creating the Universe would wish to be worshipped. It makes no sense, what possible ...[text shortened]... oms suddenly self aware? The answer is somewhere in my head already, i just need to remember it.
It's not an ego thing , God knows that it is right and fitting for us to be worshipping him because that shows we are appreciating our postion in relationship to him. If God actually needed our worship then he would not be God , he would be incomplete. He wants us to worship him because he knows it is good for us it means we see him for who he is. It's a command born out of love. We cannot project our human egotistical qualities on to him. In any case how is it possible that God is not something to be worshipped in awe and wonder? Think about it , a being with no beginning. Wow!
Originally posted by Marinkatomb
You are a collection of atoms that are collected together to form you. They are constantly being replaced with new atoms which means you are not the same thing from one moment to the next.
Indeed, a concept which I've thought deeply about for many years now. The question of identity comes part and parcel with the nature of the human condition.
When i think about this as i have for some time now, i realise that it is absurd to consider yourself as an individual that is separate from the people and objects that surround you.
I find it pleasing strange that you come to this conclusion on the evidence you have just cited. All that says to me is that our concept of identity is not founded on our physical structure alone. After a lot of thinking on the subject I have come to the conclusion that identity is a relative application of known parameters; the physical makeup, the behaviour, the memories of interactions, even the name of a person are all percentage contributions to the nature of identity and that nature is also relative to the perciever. None of this precludes your seperation from the rest of existence on numerous levels above the chemical. One can be said to exist seperately on the grounds of intention, history, personality, physical structure, animation etc.
We are all part of something much deeper than is immediately obvious, which brings me back to religion. This is spirituality, and i experience it deeply, whether i am worshipping a deity or not.
Immediately obvious? You say this like it is a brand new realisation. Let me ask you, have you never considered before the implication that you are chemical in make up? That your genetics code for you and you alone? That underlying that chemical makeup is a field of electric energy in some fashion ? Certainly that we are part of something deeper should be immediately obvious, that nature of consciousness must be bassed on some underlying construct. The fact that this seems to astonish you seems odd to me. To call this spirituality seems to infer that there is some supernatural essence here (deity or no), but I have always liked to think of spirituality as the normative state of questioning, which accompanies every human being and is possibly a major factor in our survival. I don't see that it necessarily follows that there is some paranormal going on here.
The more my thoughts develop towards understanding (or lack of it as the case may be...), the more terrifying the whole thing is.
Each stone uncovered reveals a magnitude of new questions and you tend to fear what you don't understand, but it shouldn't scare you, there's no great monster hiding in the cupboard.
I do not know why, but the thought that this is all just some crazy fluke scares the nuts out of me. My brain needs to feel secure in my beliefs and it doesn't. Perhaps these are just chemical emotions brought on by instinct to find safety. Whatever it is, it's getting in the way of my understanding.
I totally hear you, there is a real desire in people to find a place of security, the downy amnion of completeness as it were. I myself had a real battle with this, which is why two years ago I decided to do a philosophy degree. But once you get past that, and unknown is more familiar, those fears seem less and less founded. Sure, there are still more and more questions, but the nature of your being no longer seems to rest so heavily upon them.
How is there any space for the Universe to exist? The fact that it started is incredible, but the fact there was somewhere for it to start at all is too much for my tiny brain to get around.
This is my favourite faux-pas in the human condition. I find it amazing that people can expect to understand the totality of existence using the human mind, when that mind is not only contained within that existence, but is also an utterly miniscule thing. Why do you think you have the apparatus to understand all there is to understand?
I personally believe that if you push past that boundary of investing desire and passion in the need for completeness, the universe opens up that little bit more to you and you can direct that passion and desire at a whole new range of things.
EDIT: Don't fall into the trap of believing that a lack of answers implies a need for god. You're free to believe what you believe, but choosing god because you're scared of the nature of existence is not the way to do it.
Originally posted by StarrmanWhen I say cowardice, it is not intended as an insult: it merely states the obvious condition of those who get to the edge but refuse to peer into the enormity... and yet walk away bragging to their friends that it was no big thing.
No they don't, you may be happy to consider that asking the question implies an answer but I am not. Just because you think about the meaning of existence it does not follow that there is one. There's no courage or cowardice here either, merely the wandering of one's mind, stop making a song and dance out of a begged question.
You and a few others here claim that meaninglessness drives you, that there is some comfort to be had in forging your own purpose in life. You've got it half right. A search for meaning certainly has driven you--- to a degree in philosophy to help you quell the uneasiness you have with the answers thus far considered. If it is all meaningless, purposeless, who gives a rat's arse about philosophy or any other field of thought remotely resembling an attempt to answer the issues of life?
If it were indeed all meaningless, all purposeless, the fatalism of such a situation would have collapsed the entire human race upon itself. Your sense of purpose is no greater than say, Joe Stalin's, so the entire platform for society is therefore based on fantasy. Such a position is absurd and completely at odds with reality.