15 Dec 16
Originally posted by EladarSo who is arguing that.
What you are saying is wrong.
As Jesus said the angels will gather the ones found evil and have them burned, then gather his people and bring them to safety.
Jesus decides who is evil [not you]. Jesus decides who are his people or his sheep. His sheep are those who follow his commandments. The evil ones are those who do not help the poor and needy as stated in Matt 35:
.. I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in:
naked, and ye clothed me not:
sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
(Matthew 25:41-43 KJV)
Some of these will include Christian saints, or those proclaiming that they are saved, they will be cast into the lake of fire if they do not follow Jesus's commandments.
15 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes sime who claim to be saved will surely burn as will the sexually immoral and others who reject God's truth.
So who is arguing that.
Jesus decides who is evil [not you]. Jesus decides who are his people or his sheep. His sheep are those who follow his commandments. The evil ones are those who do not help the poor and needy as stated in Matt 35:
[i].. I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat:
I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and y ...[text shortened]... y are saved, they will be cast into the lake of fire if they do not follow Jesus's commandments.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by EladarThere are Gentiles who have Gods truth written in their hearts.
Yes sime who claim to be saved will surely burn as will the sexually immoral and others who reject God's truth.
There are Christians who do not have Gods truth written in their hearts.
Rejecting Gods truth is not about knowing or hearing of it, but in DOING.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Yes and doing includes striving to live a righteous life.
There are Gentiles who have Gods truth written in their hearts.
There are Christians who do not have Gods truth written in their hearts.
Rejecting Gods truth is not about knowing or hearing of it, but in DOING.
So I am not disagreeing with doing just your narrow definition of doing.
Originally posted by EladarAre you saying that Gentiles who know no God cannot 'do' and live a righteous life. The bible says otherwise.
Yes and doing includes striving to live a righteous life.
So I am not disagreeing with doing just your narrow definition of doing.
Christians have no monopoly on righteous living and good works. That is a false doctrine taught by the church.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Two things...
Are you saying that Gentiles who know no God cannot 'do' and live a righteous life. The bible says otherwise.
Christians have no monopoly on righteous living and good works. That is a false doctrine taught by the church.
I am a Gentile. There are Jews and Gentiles. Paul brought Christianity to the Gentiles. The only groups that would fall under the Gentiles of Romans 2 are people who have never been exposed to and taught about the Bible. They were excluded from being taught about the Mosaic Law of the Jews of the earlier covenant. The Gentiles who lived during the time of that covenant might still enter heaven is what Paul wrote.
Those people would know that sexual immorality is evil and would have avoided it naturally even though it was part of their culture. Those people who qualify as Gentiles of today would do the same thing. They would naturally know truth from sin and reject sin. Such people living in remote areas or in countries that do not allow their people to learn of Christ would be like Gentiles of old. You would not. I assume that you, like me, are a Gentile already made aware of Jesus Christ and the Bible.
Originally posted by EladarAs usual you are trying to make a judgement which you are not qualified to make. Here is the gist of what Romans 2 says:
Two things...
I am a Gentile. There are Jews and Gentiles. Paul brought Christianity to the Gentiles. The only groups that would fall under the Gentiles of Romans 2 are people who have never been exposed to and taught about the Bible. They were excluded from being taught about the Mosaic Law of the Jews of the earlier covenant. The Gentiles who lived durin ...[text shortened]... not. I assume that you, like me, are a Gentile already made aware of Jesus Christ and the Bible.
- God is not a respecter of of persons
- Doers and not hearers are just before God
- All people will be judged.
- Even those with no law, who will be judged by the law by which they live
The Bible says nothing about being exposed to Christianity. There are many people who reject the form of Christianity which they see around them. In the middle ages during the Spanish Inquisition during which the Catholic Church went on a witch hunt killing millions, do you think God would condemn those who reject the Catholic Church and their barbaric conduct? How about people now who reject Christianity in these times because of child abuse, molestation, greed and worldliness of the pastors and leaders? God would not condemn good decent people who reject the evil present in some modern churches.
A rejection of the Christian church is not a rejection of God and Christ.
16 Dec 16
What you call the church is not Christianity. I think this is a core misunderstanding of words that leads to confusion.
I can see leaving the Catholic church if a priest abuses you, but I do not see rejecting Christ. If you reject Christ because you believed the priest was God here on earth, then you were attending the wrong church.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999The Bible says nothing about being exposed to the Mosaic Law because everyone already knew. It was common knowledge so why have to explain it in a letter? This is where being a Christian and having the background of the message taught to you helps.
As usual you are trying to make a judgement which you are not qualified to make. Here is the gist of what Romans 2 says:
- God is not a respecter of of persons
- Doers and not hearers are just before God
- All people will be judged.
- Even those with no law, who will be judged by the law by which they live
The Bible says nothing about being expos ...[text shortened]... me modern churches.
A rejection of the Christian church is not a rejection of God and Christ.
The only problem I have with your 4 points is that you believe God judges people by the law by which they live. People get to decide for themselves and God judges accordingly. This is not the message of the Bible.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by EladarI dont get the purpose of your first paragraph. Your next one, here is the Romans 2 passage:
The Bible says nothing about being exposed to the Mosaic Law because everyone already knew. It was common knowledge so why have to explain it in a letter? This is where being a Christian and having the background of the message taught to you helps.
The only problem I have with your 4 points is that you believe God judges people by the law by which they l ...[text shortened]... get to decide for themselves and God judges accordingly. This is not the message of the Bible.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: (Romans 2:14 KJV)
The Gentiles have not the law [ either the law of Moses or the law of Christ.] They have neither. The statement about them being a law unto themselves means that whatever law they live by God will judge them accordingly. Why would God expect Gentiles to know of or follow either of the laws preached in the Bible.
Gods judgment will be modified to suit the person being judged. Jews under the Law of Moses will be judged one way, Gentiles under the law of Christ another way, Gentles under no law, will be judge by their own laws and customs
Here is Paul putting this principle of modifying his preaching to suit the hearer, in practice.
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. (1 Corinthians 9:19-23 KJV)
It is a simple matter. The basis of all entry into the Kingdom of God is a minimum level of righteousness and good works. This is explained in detail in all of the writings of the entire Bible. The modern church nonsense doctrines of telling people that they cannot be righteous enough, that they are sinners and cannot change, that they cannot please God, that they have to be perfect, that all they ahve to do is proclam their faith, all of that is the road to damnation.
You seem to have a hard and fast, strict, unforgiving doctrine which God will not have.
It is a simple matter. The basis of all entry into the Kingdom of God is a minimum level of righteousness and good works.
Direct Biblical quote or your belief based on assumptions? Of course it is your assumptions based on the spirit within.
By your beliefs the spirit within you is known. It is a common deception of the Devil to tell people they do not need to follow all of God's commands, just some and you are good to go.
16 Dec 16
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides.[c] And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[d] 18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Mathew 15
If someone does not believe that any one of the listed sins is immoral, then that person does not have the spirit of God within. The Spirit of God would let that person know that all the actions listed by Jesus are sin. If you don't have God's spirit, then you are not a Child of God.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by EladarDirect biblical quotes about who enters the Kingdom of God: Read it over - all about righteousness and good works
[b]It is a simple matter. The basis of all entry into the Kingdom of God is a minimum level of righteousness and good works.
Direct Biblical quote or your belief based on assumptions? Of course it is your assumptions based on the spirit within.
By your beliefs the spirit within you is known. It is a common deception of the Devil to tell people they do not need to follow all of God's commands, just some and you are good to go.[/b]
Matt 25 which I quoted several times
Ephesians 5 - quoted already
Revelation 21 - do you need more?
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 KJV)
Dozens of these all over the Bible about who enters and who burns in the lake of fire.
Righteousness and good works = ENTRY
Evil and no good works = NO ENTRY
Now your statement : .. It is a common deception of the Devil to tell people they do not need to follow all of God's commands, just some and you are good to go .. did you get this somewhere in the Bible. Im pretty sure it aint there. Show me a quote.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by EladarIm not arguing that. I agree.
[b]10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.” 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly ...[text shortened]... tions listed by Jesus are sin. If you don't have God's spirit, then you are not a Child of God.
16 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999As I said, as long as people follow the instructions about sin, I really don't have much against what you are saying.
Direct biblical quotes about who enters the Kingdom of God: Read it over - all about righteousness and good works
Matt 25 which I quoted several times
Ephesians 5 - quoted already
Revelation 21 - do you need more?
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, h ...[text shortened]... .. did you get this somewhere in the Bible. Im pretty sure it aint there. Show me a quote.
The only ones that I'd still say have an issue are the ones who believe they can become a god if they live well enough.
Is there a non-Christian group that follows the same set of morals as Bible believing Christians?