Indian triumph

Good times.
I do miss his cultish slavering outrage at anything sexual.

Originally posted by @divegeester
I seem to remember robbie telling the forum that he found his wife’s vagina disgusting.

That was a new level of forum gold.

To be fair, I don't know his wife, so he may have been right 😀

Originally posted by @philokalia
From a secular perspective, from a perspective where we are just arguing for some public concept of moral norms, homosexuality is immoral because it is pursuing sex outside of the normal outlets for healthy sexual behavior.

Like a lot of people - indeed, like a steadily increasing number of people who are helping to create and shape new norms - I don't see the morality of it in the same way as you do. I think arguments along the lines of something is against the norms or something is against the law are very one dimensional. I'd stick to your superstitious notions of "sin" if I were you.

Originally posted by @philokalia
In a similar sense, if I have sex with people on Tindr instead of never getting married, I am also being immoral, even though this is something that is largely my own business and does not adversely impact anyone in a very direct way.

If it has no adverse impact on others then it is not immoral. Morality is about adversely impacting others.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Sex leads to procreation when done properly.

What kind of homosexual sex "leads to procreation when done properly"?

Originally posted by @philokalia
In order to raise children, people pair off into stable, monogamous family units which instill children with values, discipline, and provide them with stability and a loving model for future behaviors.

People instilling their children with values, discipline, and providing them with stability and a loving model for future behaviours is morally sound. We do not disagree on this.

Originally posted by @philokalia
Anything besides this that becomes the primary means of sex in someone's life is viewed as lesser and thus is not moral.

Nothing is stopping you from disapproving of - or criticising - behaviours that you think are "lesser" or that you don't think are "proper". Your personal moral sensibilities are what enable - or even motivate - you to do this.

Originally posted by @fmf
Morality governs interactions between people.

What you're saying is, that if morality governs behavior, then homosexuality is institutionalized, and if so, by whom are the rules of morality set?

In reality, as things stand, outside of the church, which is "governed" by God who sets the rules, the world is running amuck in its efforts to satisfy whatever cravings it can imagine.

I'm reminded of a verse in psalm 2 from nearly 3000 years ago when God was working through Israel to the world at that time. "They"(the world) said then as they still do today, "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us."

The question asked in verse one is, "Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?"

Your "non-religious" world view notwithstanding God has His witness present in the world today, in the church and by His Word, warning the world of The Wrath to come on all those that live ungodly, and that includes homosexuality and everything else that violates God's moral code.

I realize that this is overload for those of you that don't believe, but we, the church of God, who hold to the clear teaching of scripture, know what's coming. Thing is though, it's already here. Right under your nose.

People love the darkness, and instead of taking a rational look at the statistical analyses of the consequences of immoral sexual conduct in all of its manifestations, they'd rather ignore the problems plaguing the human race and sit in their safe zones arguing over what they think is true about morality based on their own selfish interpretations and definitions of it.

But that's the world for you. Always has been and always will be, that is until the end of it, which happens to everyone everyday sooner or later. Then the judgment.

Originally posted by @secondson
What you're saying is, that if morality governs behavior, then homosexuality is institutionalized, and if so, by whom are the rules of morality set?

In reality, as things stand, outside of the church, which is "governed" by God who sets the rules, the world is running amuck in its efforts to satisfy whatever cravings it can imagine.

I'm reminded of ...[text shortened]... t is until the end of it, which happens to everyone everyday sooner or later. Then the judgment.

Christians love the darkness...they'd rather ignore the problems plaguing the human race and sit in their safe zones arguing over what they think is true about morality based on their own selfish interpretations and definitions of it.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Christians love the darkness...they'd rather ignore the problems plaguing the human race and sit in their safe zones arguing over what they think is true about morality based on their own selfish interpretations and definitions of it.

God's definition of morality. Christians love the light, but you spew darkness about the light because you aren't in the light.

If you where in the light you would believe God and not your own interpretations and definitions of morality, and your posts would reflect that light.

Originally posted by @secondson
God's definition of morality. Christians love the light, but you spew darkness about the light because you aren't in the light.

If you where in the light you would believe God and not your own interpretations and definitions of morality, and your posts would reflect that light.

The reality is that you - like many other Christians - use the Bible to create a morality based on your own selfish interpretations and definitions of it. You then have the arrogance to ascribe your self-serving morality to God.

What you call "light" is darkness.

Luke 11
34“The eye is the lamp of your body; when your eye is clear, your whole body also is full of light; but when it is bad, your body also is full of darkness. 35“Then watch out that the light in you is not darkness. 36 “If therefore your whole body is full of light], with no dark part in it, it will be wholly illumined, as when the lamp illumines you with its rays.”

Matthew 6
22“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23“But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

John 12
44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me.45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him...48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

John 5
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 7
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 22
37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Originally posted by @divegeester
Yes, many counties had poor sewage disposal hundreds of years ago.

Did you spend your schooldays in an young offenders institution? You seem to be sadly lacking in knowledge of basic history

Hey moron, taking a dump 'inside' your house, then just heaving it out into the street is funny. Don't act like such an a$$hole with your replies.

What was more amusing was that Britain got the credit for being such slobs.

Originally posted by @fabianfnas
India needs a Pride Carnival!

Hey Fabs!! You still owe me a beer, remember?

Originally posted by @suzianne
Usually by "holier than thou" hypocrites who love to look down their nose at others who might not be like them. I find it annoying that, even while everyone sins, these hypocrites always view the sins they do as somehow lesser than the sins of others. It's always, "I do this, and that makes me moral, but you do this and that makes you sinfu ...[text shortened]... home from work, where they just repossessed someone's house, throwing a family into the street.

Do you think that Christians used to "slut shame" too much? Generally speaking, much of the society has spoken out against slut shaming and perceived acts of slut shaming, right. This was something rooted deeply in Christian culture (in addition to every other culture) and shows a consistency in the attitudes of Christians, does it not?

As far as this "high horse" comment really goes, though, I am not sure how to respond because this isn't really an argument that has been developed.

Are you saying that... all sins are totally equivalent? So, like, if Albert Mohler gets angry when he drives sometimes it takes away his ability to criticize the homosexual lifestyle?

Do you care to develop this idea more for us?

Originally posted by @great-king-rat
1) Masturbation is immoral?
2) Anal sex is immoral?
3) Oral sex is immoral?
4) SM is immoral?
5) Using a condom is immoral?
6) Having sex *just for fun* is immoral?
7) Having sex for any other reason than procreation is immoral?
8) People who've raised a bunch of children to adults and decide to have no more children are immoral when they stil ...[text shortened]... mmoral?
10) People who don't want to have children, but still have sex are immoral?

And why?

Keep this in mind when reading my post. My original post was carefully stated because I have been down this path plenty of times before.

Sex leads to procreation when done properly. In order to raise children, people pair off into stable, monogamous family units which instill children with values, discipline, and provide them with stability and a loving model for future behaviors.

Anything besides this that becomes the primary means of sex in someone's life is viewed as lesser and thus is not moral.

People pair off into families for child rearing; child rearing is the primary purpose of pairing off into families. However, there is nothing here about every instance of sex having to result in pregnancy.

... And I will argue that my perspective on this is entirely rooted in the reality of Christianity. St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, chapter 7 deals with the notion that marriage is meant to give relief to Christians who are, like everyone else, sexual beings that burn with desire and yearn one another. Marriage is specifically a valid outlet for sexual activity, and sexual activity does not depend on successful impregnation every time. However, it does have to be within loving, hterosexual relationships, and it does have to be for the full purpose of human sexuality within the picture -- that is, child rearing.

I love lists:

(1) Yes. A good, brief explanation of the Orthodox position on this, which I hold:

The Eastern Orthodox Church or Orthodox Christian Church views sexuality as a gift from God that finds its fulfillment in the marital relationship, and therefore the misuse of the gift of human sexuality is sinful. Because the act of masturbation is self-directed, and by its nature is incapable of expressing love and concern for another person, it is viewed as a distortion of the use of the gift of sexuality. This is especially apparent when masturbation becomes an addiction. In the least, the practice of self-pleasure is viewed as not honoring the purpose of God's gift of sexuality.[34]

The sexual sins of fornication, adultery and masturbation, as well as hatred, jealousy, drunkenness and other sins are considered to be sins of the heart as much as the body. It is thought that turning away from sexual sin is turning away from self-indulgence for the purpose of self gratification. Instead of turning to the desires of the flesh, the Orthodox Christian turns to the Holy Spirit, whose fruit is believed to be love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.[35]

(From the Wikipedia, obviously)

(2) It has parallels with sodomy, and so I do not practice it nor do I have interest in t. it seems dirty. But if it is within a marriage, that is fine, I suppose, but it comes with pitfalls and complications.

(3) Not within marriage.

(4) Not within marriage.

(5) Not within marriage.

(6) Not within marriage.

(7) Not within marriage.

(8) Not within marriage.

(9) Not within marriage.

(10) Not within marriage.

This one is kind of tricky, though, in the sense that people should desire to be fruitful & multiply, and there should be legitimate and valid reasons to never have children, and they should be unselfish and caring.

It is also worth noting that a Bishop or a Priest can give a dispensation of oikonomia -- for instance, if two people are unmarried and living together and engaging in sex, and they have had a long-term relationship, and one of them decides to become a Christian, it is totally acceptable fo ra Bishop to make a judgment call...

Because sexuality is the norm in the relationship as it stands, and because there is an intention for marriage that exists, it would be overly burdensome to suddenly end a relationship that has already been functioning in a way like a marriage, and so the sexual relationship is not actually to be regarded as sinful anymore, but rather, they are allowed to engage in this because of the circumstances.

there are cases such as these out there.

I believe this even applies to any Christian who suddenly finds themselves rediscovering their Christianity, and not just someone who is literally unbaptized and completely ignorant of the faith.

....

The basis of all of this, is the Bible, of course, which is the Revealed Truth.

Based off of 1 Cor 7 and many other passages, we understand that sexuality is a part of our human condition, and that sex with another person done in the context of marriage is completely acceptable and this is the primary reason for there to be marriage at all.

If you do not believe in the Bible, though, and are not a Christian, there are still plenty of arguments as to why homosexuality is bad and should not be legally sanctioned.