21 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloGOD is real whether you believe it or not. HE has been forever. HE will live forever. He will be forever. GOD has not and will neve force anyone to believe in him. The unsaved will never understand or grasp the deepness of the love that HE has for those that Believe in HIM. The unsaved will never grasp or understand the grace HE has shown to those that believe in HIM. GOD is real. JESUS CHRIST is real. And HIS WORD and Promises are true.
[b]Then we must suppose that GOD is real when someone has the faith to believe that HE is.
i disagree strongly with this. what definition of 'reality' are you employing?
Then if someone has the faith that GOD is real and HIS WORD is real,then to that person all that is about GOD is real.
i think this only shows that the person you s ...[text shortened]... doesn't exist? if he doesn't exist, how can he be the creator of reality? i'm confused. 🙄[/b]
21 May 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101your opinions (which as always, you state as though they were undeniable truths) are noted. you are nothing if not consistent in these opinions as stated.
GOD is real whether you believe it or not. HE has been forever. HE will live forever. He will be forever. GOD has not and will neve force anyone to believe in him. The unsaved will never understand or grasp the deepness of the love that HE has for those that Believe in HIM. The unsaved will never grasp or understand the grace HE has shown to those that believe in HIM. GOD is real. JESUS CHRIST is real. And HIS WORD and Promises are true.
with these opinions i gather that you are trying to address my claim that your earlier opinions seemed to indicate that if nobody believed in god, then he would not exist. okay, so your opinion is that this is not correct, and you are denying this with a flurry of more opinions.
how does your post address any of the other questions that i posed?
21 May 05
Originally posted by KellyJayOk, if creation is real, then we have a problem. You have said that God is reality, that is by our operating definition, God is the set of all that is real. Since creation is real, then creation is a subset of God. Therefore it is a contradiction to say that creation is beyond God, since everything in reality is God.
I don't think I have contradicted myself. The creation is real, God
made it, but because God made it, it is as He wills it to be. The reality
of the creation depends completely on God, and does not depend on
what we think about it, it is what it is.
Kelly
What you are basically describing is some sort of Judeo-pantheism. Everything that is real is God.
As far as I can tell, the whole thing about will is entirely beside the point and only serves to confuse matters.
22 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by telerionYou are twisting my words, I did not say that everything in reality is
Ok, if creation is real, then we have a problem. You have said that God is reality, that is by our operating definition, God is the set of all that is real. Since creation is real, then creation is a subset of God. Therefore it is a con ...[text shortened]... l is entirely beside the point and only serves to confuse matters.
God.
Kelly
22 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloGOD will always exsist whether or not you believe in HIM or not. All that has been created has been creatted by GOD. All that you and everyone else is or will be. All that you can see or feel whether or not you believe in HIM will exsist. You cannot escape GOD in any way. GOD sent HIS Son to save mankind. That seems to be the Loving kind and gentle way. HE has promised though, that all that still refuse to give HIM the respect that HE desires and wants will be punished. Rightly so.
your opinions (which as always, you state as though they were undeniable truths) are noted. you are nothing if not consistent in these opinions as stated.
with these opinions i gather that you are trying to address my claim that your earlier opinions seemed to indicate that if nobody believed in god, then he would not exist. okay, so your opinion is ...[text shortened]... y of more opinions.
how does your post address any of the other questions that i posed?
All that THE WORD OF GOD says is truth, but GOD gives you the choice whether or not you accept it or not.
22 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloOne may truly believe that there is no free will. But I truly believe that we all know that is not the truth. Take for example our own lives. We have know control over our future, because we can only guess what what may happen in our life.But if we goback over our lives we can see that most of the good or bad that has happened to us is the result of our choices that we have made. And if that is true would that not mean that the choices that we have made in the past affect our future. Then in reality we do have a choice in our future. Or we have some control over our future. Is that not somewhat the same way it is with GOD.GOD has given the opportunity to us to choose our Spiritual future.
this is a very good post.
do you think that this goes against your belief that there is no free will? you state that god created our minds, but we create our own thoughts and ideas. doesn't that sound a little like free will, maybe?
Yes GOD,has created our minds. And HE has created all that we can ever think of. Whether it agrees with the laws of Righteousness, or the laws of Evil.
22 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloGOD did not create The Laws of Evil to be used by man. That is why in the Garden of Eden there were two trees that were mentioned. If man would have chosen The Tree of Life, Man would hve problely would have understood the reason that GOD had said not to touch the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. GOD never intended for Man to know Evil. Once man ate from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he then had to deal with the results of the fruit. Therefore all the evil, or the derangement of the minds of man, is the result of man's knowledge of evil. Which was man's choice, not GOD'S.
at first glance, this sentence seems ludicrous. some pretty deranged things enter the minds of deranged men. why would god spend any effort creating such rubbish?
22 May 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101all your opinions are noted.
GOD will always exsist whether or not you believe in HIM or not. All that has been created has been creatted by GOD. All that you and everyone else is or will be. All that you can see or feel whether or not you believe in HIM will exsist. You cannot escape GOD in any way. GOD sent HIS Son to save mankind. That seems to be the Loving kind and gentle wa ...[text shortened]... THE WORD OF GOD says is truth, but GOD gives you the choice whether or not you accept it or not.
i'd like to ask you a question, seriously. have there been times when you have been skeptical of your own faith? have you ever thought, even fleetingly, that maybe it is all just a big lie, that maybe the bible is wrong, jesus lied, or maybe god doesn't even exist? do you think such skepticism can ever be healthy or good?
22 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by blindfaith101i agree with you that we have free will. i think this free will is of the compatibilist variety.
One may truly believe that there is no free will. But I truly believe that we all know that is not the truth. Take for example our own lives. We have know control over our future, because we can only guess what what may happen in our ...[text shortened]... her it agrees with the laws of Righteousness, or the laws of Evil.
do you base your belief in free will on something the bible says? do you think that the bible has a view on free will in terms of whether or not it exists?
22 May 05
Originally posted by blindfaith101my post was in response to your claim that 'there is nothing that can enter the mind of man, that god did not create' (i'm paraphrasing sort of because you also capitalized god in your post).
GOD did not create The Laws of Evil to be used by man. That is why in the Garden of Eden there were two trees that were mentioned. If man would have chosen The Tree of Life, Man would hve problely would have understood the reason that GOD had said not to touch the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. GOD never intended for Man to know Evil. Once man ...[text shortened]... he minds of man, is the result of man's knowledge of evil. Which was man's choice, not GOD'S.
now you are saying that 'the derangement of the minds of man, is a result of man's knowledge of evil'.
are these two claims of yours compatible with each other, or do they contradict one another?
does your claim that we have free will contradict your first statement above?
23 May 05
I'm sorry that I've been away for a while. I have some big qualifying exams coming up in a couple of weeks as well a graduation ceremony in which I had to participate. OK, to your post!
Originally posted by KellyJay
You are twisting my words, I did not say that everything in reality is
God.
Kelly
Of course you never said it explicitly! Nevertheless, it is the logical conclusion of your statements. I made this clear in my last post. I encourage you to go back and re-read our posts to one another. I am not twisting your words at all. If you do not agree with what your statements imply, then I think you should reconsider your position. Make sure that you understand what I mean in my questions and that you understand how your answers fit within that framework.
Below is the distilled argument that has emerged from your answers to my questions:
1) By operating definition, let "reality" be the set of all things that are real. (You appeared to assent to this, and while it is difficult to define what the condition of real is, I think it is safe to think of a collection of all things that meet this condition.)
2) God is reality.
3a) Creation is a subset of reality (i.e. Creation is real)
3b) God is not a subset of his own creation (i.e. God did not create himself.)
What are the two conclusions that I draw from your statements?
1) Everything that is real is part of God and the entire collection of these things is God. This means then that everything that is in Creation is part of God. This includes you, me, Satan, and sin. (Notice the Judeo-pantheism)
Note also that 3b) is problematic. If God is the set of all that is real and the set of all that is real is not a subset of itself, then the set of all that it real is not real, and thus God is not real (and it then follows from your reasoning that Creation is not real either. But this contradicts what you have said earlier.)
Finally, there is one statement that you made that has yet to be harmonized with the rest of your claims.
?) Creation is beyond God.
From the above analysis, Creation is a subset of God. Therefore Creation cannot be beyond God. If you do not like the implications of this reasoning, then I suggest that you reconsider your statement that "God is reality." While the statement may sound poetic or spiritual to you, within the context of the question it amounts to pantheism.
23 May 05
Originally posted by telerionI believe I was clear. I do not see how you are got what your stating
I'm sorry that I've been away for a while. I have some big qualifying exams coming up in a couple of weeks as well a graduation ceremony in which I had to participate. OK, to your post!
Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]You are twisting my words, I did not say that everything in reality is
God.
Kelly
Of course you never said it expli ...[text shortened]... ound poetic or spiritual to you, within the context of the question it amounts to pantheism.
[/b]
here out of what I have said, since I made it clear that the creation
is the handy work of God, not God Himself. God it only limited by His
Word and His nature. While His creation being real, is molded to suit
God's will, it isn't God Himself, God can change it at God's will. God is
the Master, the Lord of all creation, while the creation is subject to God.
Kelly
23 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayKelly, I'm growing impatient with you. You're responses to the questions imply direct contradictions. I can hardly make it any more clear than I have in the last two posts.
I believe I was clear. I do not see how you are got what your stating
here out of what I have said, since I made it clear that the creation
is the handy work of God, not God Himself. God it only limited by His
Word and His nature. While ...[text shortened]... Lord of all creation, while the creation is subject to God.
Kelly
I'm afraid that the topic has terribly confused you. Statements about God's will are completely irrelevant to the questions.
Let's restate how you've answered my questions in what I hope is an even easier way.
Q: Is God the creator of reality (reality is "the set of all that is real" )?
KJ: God is in my opinion reality. 19 May '05 14:18.
Q: Is God the set itself (reality itself) or is he a subset of it?
KJ: beyond God is His creation 19 May '05 14:18
KJ: The creation is real 20 May '05 14:27
(Notice the contradiction implied by the two answers to this question. Since Creation is a real thing, it is part of God, since God is the set of all that is real. But if Creation is beyond God, then Creation is outside of the set of all real things, and so Creation is not real. So which is it?)
Here is another problem that you have. Taking what you have claimed:
1) God is reality. (God = reality)
2) God created reality.
Here is what it directly implies:
3) God created God.
Pretty simple. Don't you agree? Yet you continue to insist that God did not create God.
Now for the contradiction (3b) in my previous post. I see where the verbage could be confusing if some one were not paying attention. Perhaps an easier way to see the contradiction is to break down (3b) in the following manner:
1) Reality is the set of all that is real.
2) God is reality.
3) God is not a subset of reality.
this implies:
4) God is not real.
5) Reality is not real.
It is my earnest hope that in looking once again over your statements and the basic implications which arise from them that you will understand and address these contradictions. I also hope that I have made this exercise a great deal easier for you by giving references to the exact posts which contain your relevant answers to my questions.
23 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerI think it would be better to say that you feel or think that God is real, and I do not. That is fair.
God is a reality in my life. He may not be a reality in your life, but that does not mean that He cannot be a reality in my life.
As far as the questions go, you've just chosen not to answer them. You clearly believe in a reality (since you just said that God is real). Given that, then the following questions are appropriate:
Let reality be the set of all that is real. If so is God the creator of this reality? Is God a subset of this creation?