24 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiNonetheless, they are real, as is the number 2 and the property of transitivity. Hence, if they are not created then Lucifer S.'s definition of 'reality' is flawed.
Theorems were not created. They were discovered. And they were a necessary consequence of having a rational mind. Logic is just the formulation of rationality.
24 May 05
Originally posted by bbarrI agree. I speak for myself. I think Lucifer S's definition described what I would call the empirical reality - reality found in time and space that God created.
Nonetheless, they are real, as is the number 2 and the property of transitivity. Hence, if they are not created then Lucifer S.'s definition of 'reality' is flawed.
2 and transitivity are also real, but they are not empirical, they are rational. So they existed before time and space - or they are a necessary consequence of the interaction of the rational with the empirical.
24 May 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloAnd the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest eat: But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. GENESIS 2:16,17
blindfaith101,
i have re-read genesis chapters 2 and 3. having done so, i do not think they demonstrate the existence of free will. in fact, if i had to choose one way or the other, i would argue they demonstrate the lack of free will (though i think this argument would be weak). ultimately, i do not think the passages are conclusive either way. i ...[text shortened]... genesis chapters 2 and 3 would support your ideas that free will does not exist. do you agree?
GOD clearly gave man intructions. Man could eat of every tree except one. Clearly giving man a choice. Man could obey GOD or be disobedient. GOD gave man the free choice of what he could eat and not eat.
Man was in the place of Blessing. Everything in his life was good.There was no evil in his life at all. Which would mean that man was under the Laws of blessing. Man had a good job. Man had a good married. He had the opportunity to make good choices. Every thing was good in his life. He had no first hand knowledge of evil. He had no real idea of what death was, and what it meant.
Man had the free choice to live the good life, in fact he was commanded to.
24 May 05
2 edits
Originally posted by bbarrWe are talking about two different (though related) notions (orders?) or reality here. As Coletti puts it, what I'm talking about is empirical reality whereas what you're talking about is the reality of abstractions. We're using the term "real"/"reality" in two different senses.
Nonetheless, they are real, as is the number 2 and the property of transitivity. Hence, if they are not created then Lucifer S.'s definition of 'reality' is flawed.
LH
24 May 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesWhat about the number 2? Was it discovered? And freedom, is it real? And unicorns? And Pi? And truth, does it exist?
Existence is one property shared by all things that are discovered. It is the property that without which, they could not have been discovered.
24 May 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesOkay. Then what is existence? Describe the property of existence, not what the effect of the property.
No. You've got it backwards. Existence is a necessary property that allows something to be discovered. Being discovered is not a necessary property for something to exist.
And tell me what does not exist.
24 May 05
Originally posted by ColettiA big boat that houses two animals of every sort. Such a thing does not and has never existed.
And tell me what does not exist.
Also, talking serpents do not exist.
Nor do days when the sun stands still in the sky.
In general, anything that would logically yield a contradiction if it were to exist along with everything else whose existence is already accepted cannot exist.
24 May 05
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesBut you still have not defined existence. What is it?
A big boat that houses two animals of every sort. Such a thing does not and has never existed.
Also, talking serpents do not exist.
Nor do days when the sun stands still in the sky.
In general, anything that would logically yield a contradiction if it were to exist along with everything else whose existence is already accepted cannot exist.
Also, does freedom exist? What about truth?