"Is Hell Forever?"

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Sure; but i also see kindness and compassion, innocence and love. Perhaps, as an atheist (many Christians shriek in disbelief) i see the good in man, more than i see the sin.

Life is a rare and precious thing.

Sure; but i also see kindness and compassion, innocence and love. Perhaps, as an atheist (many Christians shriek in disbelief) i see the good in man, more than i see the sin.

Life is a rare and precious thing.
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You are an Atheist and see the good in man?

I would like to ask you - before man existed, did this "the good" exist apart from man ?

If so, please tell me a bit about "the good" that is there, prior to man even existing, transcendent perhaps and "eternal"?, and objective.

What is this "the good"?
Now I expect other atheists will jump in and give replies. But I am interested specifically in you following through with a comment.

thanks

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Hell was not created at all Kelly, not by a God anyway. (His non-existence put to one side).

Scripture teaches otherwise, and if you reject that you can believe what you will it will not
change the truth of it.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Sure; but i also see kindness and compassion, innocence and love. Perhaps, as an atheist (many Christians shriek in disbelief) i see the good in man, more than i see the sin.

Life is a rare and precious thing.
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You are an Atheist and see the good in man?
...[text shortened]... ve replies. But I am interested specifically in you following through with a comment.

thanks[/b]

Of course. Well, i have already given you 4 examples of the good in man, so let us play with them:

kindness
compassion
innocence
love

Did these qualities of goodness exist before man? Are they eternal?

I think they evolved. (Sorry Hinds). It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as parenthood no doubt evoked behaviour of love for their offspring. Indeed, perhaps parental love is the root of all goodness that became manifest in its most developed form in man, due to his unique (ish) ability to reason and reflect. That said, animals too are capable of love and kindness (i've seen it) so there's no reason to assume goodness only came into existence with the advent of man. - 'Goodness' though can not be eternal, for nothing is.

Any how, i am interested to hear why, when you look into the faces of people, you see their moral weaknesses rather than their strengths?

Thanks

Originally posted by KellyJay
Scripture teaches otherwise, and if you reject that you can believe what you will it will not
change the truth of it.

I respect that is what you believe. I however do not view scripture that way. I do not believe truth resides in a book; any book.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I respect that is what you believe. I however do not view scripture that way. I do not believe truth resides in a book; any book.

Really, you don't believe in books?

I guess you reject everything than from faith to science.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Really, you don't believe in books?

I guess you reject everything than from faith to science.

He's right though. Truth (or one's understanding of their own) exists within the observer primarily. even Christians,no?
It is only secondarily enforced via books or other sources.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Really, you don't believe in books?

I guess you reject everything than from faith to science.

lol Let me elaborate. (Didn't think i would have to, be here we go).

I did not say 'i don't believe in books.' (I am surrounded by them). I said i don't believe 'truth' resides in a book.

'Truth is like the wind. Capture it in a book and ceases to be wind.'

Yes, we can learn from books, but is there 'one book' that can deliver us absolute truth? I don't believe so. Are you able to respect that is what i believe?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Of course. Well, i have already given you 4 examples of the good in man, so let us play with them:

kindness
compassion
innocence
love

Did these qualities of goodness exist before man? Are they eternal?

I think they evolved. (Sorry Hinds). It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as p ...[text shortened]... into the faces of people, you see their moral weaknesses rather than their strengths?

Thanks

Thankyou.

I have to suspend discussion for the moment. However, of course I have to see the worth of human beings because we are created in the image of God. We have been created like that eternal and Ultimate Value.

As a Christian I see both the intrinsic worth of men and also the damaged upon this man of worth. It is not an either / or dichotomy.

It is like a well designed radio that has unfortunately been cast off to the side of the street. It doesn't function properly but plays static noised instead of the proper transmission.

Both the worth of the radio and the disfunctioning damage upon the radio are perceived.

We're likely to converse latter.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Of course. Well, i have already given you 4 examples of the good in man, so let us play with them:

kindness
compassion
innocence
love

Did these qualities of goodness exist before man? Are they eternal?

I think they evolved. (Sorry Hinds). It could probably be argued that even dinosaurs exhibited basic examples of goodness, in so much as p ...[text shortened]... into the faces of people, you see their moral weaknesses rather than their strengths?

Thanks

'Goodness' though can not be eternal, for nothing is.
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I believe that if anything exists at all then something has to be eternal.

The being of anything that began to exist must mean the eternal being of something.

Originally posted by sonship

I believe that if anything exists at all then something has to be eternal.

The being of anything that began to exist must mean the eternal being of something.

I will ponder on that.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
lol Let me elaborate. (Didn't think i would have to, be here we go).

I did not say 'i don't believe in books.' (I am surrounded by them). I said i don't believe 'truth' resides in a book.

'Truth is like the wind. Capture it in a book and ceases to be wind.'

Yes, we can learn from books, but is there 'one book' that can deliver us absolute truth? I don't believe so. Are you able to respect that is what i believe?

Okay, I believe I see what you mean and and if I am grasping it...it makes sense.
Thanks

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP)
Is Hell Forever? Evangelicals and Eternal Retribution
(Reprinted with permission from Voice, Sept./Oct, 2001. By Dr. James R. Mook)

"Will the destiny of the unsaved be eternal conscious torment or annihilation (total cessation of existence)? The eternal conscious punishment of the lost has always been a fundamental doctrine of Christian ort ...[text shortened]... d questions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you.

"Biblical support of the fundamental doctrine"

"The doctrine of eternal conscious punishment asserts that after physical death on earth, the soul of the unsaved person immediately enters a state and place of continual conscious torment. The condemned state will culminate in bodily resurrection, final judgment, and then unending torment in the “lake of fire.” Following are major passages supporting this doctrine.

Dan 12:1-2 contrasts “everlasting life” with “everlasting contempt” (NKJV). If “life” will be unending conscious blessing, “contempt” must also be unending conscious disgrace.

Matt 25:46 contrasts the condemnation of the wicked, “everlasting punishment,” with the blessing of the righteous, “eternal life.” So if eternal life will be consciously experienced without end, “everlasting punishment” will also be consciously experienced without end.

And since verse 41 designates “everlasting fire” as the means of the “everlasting punishment,” then the punishment will indeed be agonizing.

The unimaginable pain is depicted by the “wailing and gnashing of teeth of the wicked in the furnace of fire” (13:42, 50), to which they will be sent in judgment by Christ at His Second Advent (13:41-42, 49-50). (Note that the Lord Jesus spoke much about hell and eternal conscious punishment examples: Matt 5:21-22, 27-30; 8:1112; 10:28; 13:30, 40-43, 49-50;18:6-9; 23:15, 33; 24:51; 25:30, 41, 46; Mark 9:42-48; Luke 16:19-31.)

In Mark 9:42-48, Jesus uses Isaiah. 66:24 (three times in the Majority Text) to give a picture of people in hell: “Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” The picture is of unending consumption by worms and fire-a consumption that never ends. 2 Thess 1:9 says that unbelievers will be “punished with everlasting destruction,” indicating a process of destruction that never ends.

Revelation 14:9-11 depicts unbelievers as ultimately objects of the unmitigated “wrath of God” by being “tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” That this conscious torment will never end is shown by verse 11: “the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night.” This passage depicts people being tormented without end by burning without end. Revelation 20:10-15 sustains this interpretation by using identical terms in v. 10 to describe “the devil,” “the beast and the false prophet” in “the lake of fire and brimstone” being “tormented day and night forever and ever.” And this unending torment in “the lake of fire” will then be experienced by the unrighteous in “the second death” (20:14-15)." (Section 2 of 9) http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution

Originally posted by Rajk999 to Grampy Bobby
[b] Would your constant posting of the opinions of others say something not too flattering about yourself?[/b]

On the face of it I would say no, but your constant criticism of him just might say something not too flattering about you.

I'm just sayin'.

Originally posted by divegeester
Completely unsupported in scripture. I don't know where you get these jackanory ideas from.

Again, this might be because of your insistence to "go it alone" spiritually. You can get a lot of stuff wrong that way, and who's the wiser? Not you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I would be interested as well in some supporting references

Of course you would. You, like divegeester, insist on "going it alone" spiritually and this leads you both astray and into the wilderness.