05 Feb 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzNo, I am not going to say that is proof of God. I am going to say, however, that you are having faith in what you believe. Not even YOU can fully prove evolution right down to the atom. You have faith that there was always something there.
Fundy = fundamentalist.
I agree that the universe must have some sort of order for evolution to occur. You are sure to jump on this and say something like "ooo, oo, ooo, proof of God". Of course, it isn't, but there you go....
05 Feb 07
Originally posted by ckoh1965I need to think about this for a while, if you don't mind. I have thought about it before but have never really come to a satisfactory conclusion.
I haven't gone so far as to define what God is. But I have the impression that He should be a loving, almighty, know-it-all being. I am not only rejecting the God of the bible, but my rejection is to all the religions.
It is my opinion that God should be a good being. He should reflect all the good qualities that He is trying to impose upon us all. But ...[text shortened]... e are doomed forever. Well, this is not the God that I'd like to love, let alone worship.
05 Feb 07
Though I'm curious as to how yet another thread turned into a discussion
on evolution, but haven't the time to actually read it all, I have to say it
puzzles me how such a simple concept can be so hard to comprehend
that almost all threads in this forum ends up being a discussion about it.
I think scottish has been very clear and made some excellent examples
of what makes evolution tick. Perhaps the most common mistake ID
proponents make is that they assume everything strives to develop into
humanlike form (like we humans are the peak of evolution) walking on
two legs, making tools, communicating and exploiting resources like no
other species. A snake with legs? Why I wonder? The snake is well
adapted to the living conditions of its natural habitat. No need for legs
there. In fact, the lack of legs is one of the defining strengths of a
snake. Even us humans, with our "higher thought abilities" are often
scared of poisonous snakes in the wild. Why? Because they are a real
threat to us if we surprise them, and our senses are not very well
adapted to detect snakes. So, in this respect, the snake is higher on the
evolutionary ladder than humans.
It's so simple. Random mutations happen with every new generation and
if a certain feature gives you an edge when it comes to surviving in
your given environment you will most likely pass it on to a new
generation, whereas if it directly hinders your ability to survive (or some
other animal is better adapted to handle a conflict between the two of
you) you probably won't live long enough to procreate in the first
place. Is that a simple concept or what? No thought needed behind it all.
Early human species just happened to be well adapted to their
environment and survived. I'm sure there are plenty of would be human
species that has died out simply because they weren't as well
adapted to the given environment as the modern human.
05 Feb 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherYes, but your faith (i.e. faith irrespective, sometimes in spite of the evidence, and against parsimony), and my faith (in empirical evidence, experimentation, theory, and maximising parsimony) are completely different.
No, I am not going to say that is proof of God. I am going to say, however, that you are having faith in what you believe. Not even YOU can fully prove evolution right down to the atom. You have faith that there was always something there.
05 Feb 07
Originally posted by stockenJust to add to that, as I don't think anyone had mentioned it yet, snakes actually evolved from creatures with legs.
Why I wonder? The snake is well adapted to the living conditions of its natural habitat. No need for legs there. In fact, the lack of legs is one of the defining strengths of a snake.
05 Feb 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherCan you prove that yesterday happened? Do you just have faith that it happened?
No, I am not going to say that is proof of God. I am going to say, however, that you are having faith in what you believe. Not even YOU can fully prove evolution right down to the atom. You have faith that there was always something there.
Do you have proof that the sun exists or do you just have faith that it does?
When told by an astronomer how far away the sun is, do you accept that as fact or do you say that it is merely faith as "not even YOU can fully prove the distance to the sun right down to the atom".
In my understanding of English, faith is when you believe something without sufficient evidence. If you had concrete evidence that God exists then you would not need faith to believe that he exists.
I have seen lots of concrete evidence for evolution, enough to convince me that it has taken place in the past and is taking place now. I have seen no such evidence for the existence of God. In fact all the evidence I have available to me implies that God does not exist.
05 Feb 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadIndeed, I did think about it, but decided not to include it. Of course, this may make it easier for snakes to evolve legs, since most of the required genes already exist!
Just to add to that, as I don't think anyone had mentioned it yet, snakes actually evolved [b]from creatures with legs.[/b]
06 Feb 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadShow me that evidence that you say you have that God does NOT exsist.
Can you prove that yesterday happened? Do you just have faith that it happened?
Do you have proof that the sun exists or do you just have faith that it does?
When told by an astronomer how far away the sun is, do you accept that as fact or do you say that it is merely faith as "not even YOU can fully prove the distance to the sun right down to the atom" ...[text shortened]... tence of God. In fact all the evidence I have available to me implies that God does not exist.
Did you not read the entire thread? Please read it so as to prevent taking my words out of context.
06 Feb 07
Originally posted by ckoh1965Ok, I have thought about it and this is my response.
I haven't gone so far as to define what God is. But I have the impression that He should be a loving, almighty, know-it-all being. I am not only rejecting the God of the bible, but my rejection is to all the religions.
It is my opinion that God should be a good being. He should reflect all the good qualities that He is trying to impose upon us all. But ...[text shortened]... e are doomed forever. Well, this is not the God that I'd like to love, let alone worship.
You’re right. God should be a loving, almighty, and all-knowing God. But there is a very good reason as to why He destroyed men and women in the Bible – they were awful, sinful people who rebelled against God when they clearly knew that they would have to suffer the consequences for their sin, and surely they knew that their children would be punished with them, so perhaps they are the ones who chose the destiny of their children and babies (the destiny to drown – not the destiny to go to Hell), so it was not God’s fault. But to be honest (and I know this will sound like I am not a strong Christian – and perhaps I’m not as strong as I should be) I really can’t understand why a loving God could kill innocent babies. That is why the only thing that makes sense is what I said before – the parents are responsible. Just as someone who molests a child is responsible…it was not the Childs fault, but they have to live with the pain of it for the rest of their lives until they get to Heaven, if they are saved. It isn’t God’s fault that the shmuck did that, but then that gets into free will. Wow, this is getting complicated!
But I do know that God is not acting in the same way today as He was 4,000 years ago. From what I understand about the doctrine of the Bible, He has set Israel aside and now there is no Jew, Israelite, Gentile etc in His eyes. We are all the same sinners who need Him, and He longs for us to choose, understand and love Him.
What if it is all true ckoh1965? What if the true Designer is the God of the Bible? I’ve heard many people say that they would not want to go to Heaven or serve this “god” if He really is a murderer. But what if He is not a murderer and He was justified in all of the things He did? That would make all those people fools and in extreme danger, for God would be forced to send them to Hell because they made the choice to go there, all because they cannot know and understand why God “murdered” these people.
This is merely in my personal opinion: if God made man with a free will for the purpose of sifting through those who really love Him and will choose Him, and then someone (knowing the consequences) chooses to go to Hell, then what can God do? He made us with free will, and He can do no less than to give us what we chose. We cannot choose to love God if there is no other alternative, that is why He *tolerated* sins presence.
06 Feb 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherPain, suffering, death. All things an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God should eradicate immediately, but doesn't.
Show me that evidence that you say you have that God does NOT exsist.
Did you not read the entire thread? Please read it so as to prevent taking my words out of context.
06 Feb 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzThat is not proof that God does not exist. If I was to give you a lame 'proof' such as "evolution is not true because the missing link is still missing" then I'm sure you would say something like "You Christians are all the same and never have any proof of what you say blah blah blah and you always use circular reasoning". Give me solid evidence that He does not exist. Use science or something!
Pain, suffering, death. All things an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God should eradicate immediately, but doesn't.
06 Feb 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherI suppose that's one way of looking at the matter. But I am not one who would support the idea of punishing somebody for someone else's misdeeds. That somehow doesn't sound correct to me. I am not a person of legal background, but I have this gut feeling that there is just great injustice to expect someone to pay for the mistakes of others, even of his parents. That's why I am not favourable to the idea that I have to pay for what Adam and Eve did thousands of years ago. In fact, that is one subject I'm unable to come to terms with as far as christianity is concerned. I wonder if my parents were very, very religious people, if that could guarantee me a place in heaven. After all, if their misdeeds can somehow have far-reaching consequences up to me, then it should follow that their good deeds should also have some sort of 'carried-forward' benefits to me? But never mind if whatever bad deeds by my parents are borne by me. If it has to be like that, I suppose I'll just have to live with it! But even then, I think if were God, I would at least allow the opportunity for the child to be born into this world to redeem or correct whatever mistakes that his/her parents had done. The whole idea is ridiculous to the last degree, at least that's how I see it.
Ok, I have thought about it and this is my response.
You’re right. God should be a loving, almighty, and all-knowing God. But there is a very good reason as to why He destroyed men and women in the Bible – they were awful, sinful people who rebelled against God when they clearly knew that they would have to suffer the consequences for their sin, and ...[text shortened]... t choose to love God if there is no other alternative, that is why He *tolerated* sins presence.
Moving on to your second question: What if the bible God is the true one, then that would make all those (unbelievers) fools? Well, this type of question is a tricky one. 'What if' is something that is still an 'IF' at the end of the day. In another thread I saw someone with something like this: ".... if you whorshipped Him, and then it turned out that there is no Him in the end, then you have nothing to lose; but if there is indeed a Him, then you have everything to gain....." I can't help feeling that I am forced to worship something out of fear that I might end up in an unpleasant day when I die. In other words, if there is no fear of that unpleasantness of being in hell, there is nothing to worry, really. I am not so sure I want so much to spend my eternity apple-polishing that big guy in heaven?
And here, I'd like to go a little further on this heaven and hell matter. Exactly what are these places all about? I guess everyone talks about heaven being a place of sinless, clean in every aspect of the word, close to God etc.etc.; and hell is that horrible unpleasant, fire, torture etc.etc. But what does one really get in hell? Is it the torture that we fear so much? Do all those people who end up in hell get the same type of punishment? Or do they get different types of punishment? Surely it is reasonable to expect that Robin Hood gets a lighter punishment than, say, Hitler?
And so let us now build up a possible scenario: This guy is a very kind-hearted person. He goes out of his ways to help others in need. He donates most of his money to charity. All his life he kept helpig others. In the end, he died while trying to save a little girl from a road accident. BUT!! he doesn't believe in any religion. So what happens next? According to the christians, this guy is liable to end up in hell, because he has chosen NOT to worship God. So he arrives in hell and was immediately committed to the fire and tortures, in fact next in line to Hitler. I refuse to believe in such injustice that this great loving God would resort to.
Finally, this thing about free will. Of course there is no such thing as free will as far as christianity is concerned. It is just a convenient way to force us all to worship God..... through fear of punishment. Always, it has been said, it is YOUR choice, and so I have no choice but to give you what you wanted. Really? OK, I want to go to heaven, that's my choice. But I don't want to worship you! Just because I was born in a civilised environment, I am cursed with this obligation to worship god? What happens to all those canibals in the deep jungles who still worship fires as the gods? I guess they'll all go to hell?
I'm sorry if I'm too crude with my language. But I do keep an open mind. I debate quite a lot with the non-believers too.