Originally posted by ckoh1965
I suppose that's one way of looking at the matter. But I am not one who would support the idea of punishing somebody for someone else's misdeeds. That somehow doesn't sound correct to me. I am not a person of legal background, but I have this gut feeling that there is just great injustice to expect someone to pay for the mistakes of others, even of his pare ...[text shortened]... I do keep an open mind. I debate quite a lot with the non-believers too.

Too long, can you summerize your main point in a few sentences please?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
After all, if their misdeeds can somehow have far-reaching consequences up to me, then it should follow that their good deeds should also have some sort of 'carried-forward' benefits to me?

I like your thinking. This was certainly an original point of view.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
That is not proof that God does not exist. If I was to give you a lame 'proof' such as "evolution is not true because the missing link is still missing" then I'm sure you would say something like "You Christians are all the same and never have any proof of what you say blah blah blah and you always use circular reasoning". Give me solid evidence that He does not exist. Use science or something!

Please go back and check the relevant posts a bit more carefully. Nobody has presented the evidence as 'proof'. You asked for some evidence, you were provided with some.
If you say that "the missing link is still missing" then it can be presented as evidence that evolution is not true. However, to be convincing evidence you must also show that it is a true statement (it is not) and that it is actually contradictory to the theory of evolution (it is not).
Can you show that scottishinnz's evidence is either false or does not contradict the possibility of the existence of God. If you cannot then you must accept it as evidence against the existence of God, even if you do not find it convincing. You can of course claim that although it is evidence, you are sure there is an explanation even though you are unable to provide it.

I personally find it very convincing evidence that God does not exist as nobody so far has been able to explain to me (in a way that I can understand) why it is not contradictory to the concept of the existence of God or why it is false (eg maybe God cannot do it).

Originally posted by SharpeMother
That is not proof that God does not exist. If I was to give you a lame 'proof' such as "evolution is not true because the missing link is still missing" then I'm sure you would say something like "You Christians are all the same and never have any proof of what you say blah blah blah and you always use circular reasoning". Give me solid evidence that He does not exist. Use science or something!

Actually, my point is quite enough by itself. At least, you have a contradiction on you hands. Why does an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God allow suffering?

As for scientific proof, well, it's impossible to test for god, but in the absence of evidence, I'll go with parsimony every time.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Actually, my point is quite enough by itself. At least, you have a contradiction on you hands. Why does an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God allow suffering?

As for scientific proof, well, it's impossible to test for god, but in the absence of evidence, I'll go with parsimony every time.

Why does an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God allow suffering?

Why do you think this is a problem?

Edit: Read the following

Sura 2- Al Bakara
155. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,

156. Who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return":-

157. They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Why does an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God allow suffering?

Why do you think this is a problem?

Edit: Read the following

Sura 2- Al Bakara
155. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,

156. Who say, wh ...[text shortened]... m (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance. [/b]

It is not a problem at all. It only becomes a problem when it happens to you. I'm sure when you are found to have cancer and given only 3 months to live, you'll feel very happy about it, because it is a test from god, and you are most willing to presevere.

Originally posted by ckoh1965
It is not a problem at all. It only becomes a problem when it happens to you. I'm sure when you are found to have cancer and given only 3 months to live, you'll feel very happy about it, because it is a test from god, and you are most willing to presevere.

Who told I didn't face any suffer? That is the difference between you and me. I don't see it as a suffer. That make my life much simpler.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Who told I didn't face any suffer? That is the difference between you and me. I don't see it as a suffer. That make my life much simpler.

Suffer or enjoy; simple and complicated. These are all relative terms, you see. And so I am inclined to agree with you on this; that is indeed the difference between you and I.

I see it as 'suffer', but obviously you don't. And I see a life with an obligation to pray five times a day, in a specific format and direction and specific verses -- I see this as complicated. But obviously, it is simple to you. Oh well, what can I say, we can't possibly agree on everything? That would probably make the world a very boring place, huh?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
Suffer or enjoy; simple and complicated. These are all relative terms, you see. And so I am inclined to agree with you on this; that is indeed the difference between you and I.

I see it as 'suffer', but obviously you don't. And I see a life with an obligation to pray five times a day, in a specific format and direction and specific verses -- I see this t possibly agree on everything? That would probably make the world a very boring place, huh?

And I see a life with an obligation to pray five times a day, in a specific format and direction and specific verses -- I see this as complicated. But obviously, it is simple to you.

For me that is the main reason for any atheist to deny GOD existance, Obligation. They refuse to obligated to anyone except themselves. But muslims don't see this way. Prayer is a way to be in a direct contact with GOD. So they go to it by willing and love. As you said a muslim must pray five times a day. But many muslims don't only pray the five prayers. They do more, and more. They enjoy that, but of course you will see that they are getting their life more complicated.

Any way that is not the point here, I was answering the Question.


Oh well, what can I say, we can't possibly agree on everything? That would probably make the world a very boring place, huh?

you are right, for the same reason there exist what you call suffering. If it doesn't exist the life would have been very boring for some people 🙂

Edit: I want to give you something to think about. You assume that death is some sort of suffering. Do you think if there is no death the world would have been better?

Originally posted by ahosyney
I want to give you something to think about. You assume that death is some sort of suffering. Do you think if there is no death the world would have been better?

I don't remember expressing any assumption that death is some sort of sufferring. It need not be a sufferring. But of course some deaths are painful and dramatic; some are peaceful, for example that that occurs in a peaceful sleep.

No, I don't think the world would have been a better place if there is no death. I have not debated this particular issue before this. My point is: why must there be 'life' after death? Why must we 'continue' to another place, may is be heaven or hell? Why not death is the ultimate end? Why must there be a continuation after this life on earth, either to heaven or hell, for this life to mean something?

Originally posted by ckoh1965
I don't remember expressing any assumption that death is some sort of sufferring. It need not be a sufferring. But of course some deaths are painful and dramatic; some are peaceful, for example that that occurs in a peaceful sleep.

No, I don't think the world would have been a better place if there is no death. I have not debated this particular issue be ation after this life on earth, either to heaven or hell, for this life to mean something?

I don't remember expressing any assumption that death is some sort of sufferring.

English is not my first language as it is for you. So may be my sentense is not clear, or I didn't express my question in a good way...

But any way I think you got my point..

It need not be a sufferring. But of course some deaths are painful and dramatic; some are peaceful, for example that that occurs in a peaceful sleep.

For some people all death is sufferring even the one you see peaceful.

No, I don't think the world would have been a better place if there is no death. I have not debated this particular issue before this.

Some see death is suffereing because it means for them the end of life while it is not. It is the transition from one life to another one. And that is the main issue.

My point is: why must there be 'life' after death? Why must we 'continue' to another place, may is be heaven or hell? Why not death is the ultimate end? Why must there be a continuation after this life on earth, either to heaven or hell, for this life to mean something?

Are you asking me these questions or asking Allah?

I mean do you need the answer to prove GOD existance to yourself, or you belive that GOD exists but you don't like what he did or do.

If you need it it to prove GOD existance for yourself, then these questions are not the good ones. You must first think about your existance itself. But mind alone is not enough to prove GOD existance, you need a massage from him to you. I belive this Message is Islam, other belive something else, if you really seek the truth you must search and read.

If you belive in GOD existance but don't like his way of managing our life, then I don't know what to say.

Do you think that the GOD who gave you every aspect of you life, need you to question him?

I can give you an answer, for all your questions but I really don't know how they are going to help. I think you may know my answer already.

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]I don't remember expressing any assumption that death is some sort of sufferring.

English is not my first language as it is for you. So may be my sentense is not clear, or I didn't express my question in a good way...

But any way I think you got my point..

It need not be a sufferring. But of course some deaths are painful and dramatic; so ...[text shortened]... really don't know how they are going to help. I think you may know my answer already.

What is God?

Allah?

Originally posted by ahosyney
[b]Why does an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God allow suffering?

Why do you think this is a problem?

Edit: Read the following

Sura 2- Al Bakara
155. Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,

156. Who say, wh ...[text shortened]... m (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance. [/b]

Why test people when he already knows what they'll do? Seems pointless.

Originally posted by ahosyney
For me that is the main reason for any atheist to deny GOD existance, Obligation.

You are simply wrong there. An atheist does not believe in God. Someone who believes in God but denies his existence for whatever reasons is a theist. An atheist cannot possibly deny the existence of God based on some proposed unwanted property of God as he does not believe that the said God exists in the first place.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Why test people when he already knows what they'll do? Seems pointless.

Sounds like a reasonable question.