Is Salvation a free gift?

Originally posted by pritybetta
"only God can achieve this in us by grace (with our co-operation)"

Can you give some scripture to prove this? If it required our co-operation, then salvation is not of the Lord only and we have to do something. And the Lord is clear that it is not by our works that we are saved.

NRS James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The fact that the extant Pauline corpus is so much larger than this one letter by James does not mean that James' statements in chapter 2 can be discounted, or even necessarily contextualized, by reference to Paul.

The early post-apostolic church (of which Jaroslav Pelikan said that, if one could call it an "orthodoxy" at all, it was a kind of "pluraistic orthodoxy" ) was as little wedded to sola fide as it was to sola scriptura.

Originally posted by vistesd
NRS James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

The fact that the extant Pauline corpus is so much larger than this one letter by James does not mean that James' statements in chapter 2 can be discounted, or even necessarily contextualized, by reference to Paul.

The early post-apostolic church (of which Jaros ...[text shortened]... c orthodoxy" ) was as little wedded to sola fide as it was to sola scriptura.

You brought up a good verse there. However, you have to look at the contexed in the chapter. The chapter was teaching that someone who claims to believe is not justified if his works do not show his believe and therefore does not truely believe in the first place. Works are the result of salvation, not the cause of it.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Besides, I never said that we do not have to do works, I said that it is not needed for salvation. Works are not what saves you, it is the grace of God that he grants you faith and then is when you can do works unto justification.

Or nature does not alow us to work our way to salvation for we would never seek him in our own spiritually discerned nature.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Originally posted by muppyman
If God's plan of salvation can be stymied by His children not wanting to accept it, then it seems to put His omnipotence on shaky ground. By an act of His will the whole universe was created, but we can resist that will? Not the kind of heavenly father I would wish to call mine. No wonder I choose to be an atheist.

I am sorry you are atheist. You seem to have more understanding than most who claim to be saved.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"The Bible teaches us that nothing we do will can get us saved. Not believing, not accepting, nothing. Belief is the cause of salvation, and it is Christ who make us acceptable. Christ has done it all for those who are predestined before the foundation of the world."

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gos ...[text shortened]... ieve the gospel, and consequently gave us something to be conformed to. The image of His son.[/b]

If one must choose then this verse is not true.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We can not choose becaues we are spiritually discerned. Can a dead man come to life on his own with out Christ quickening him first?

What you said about Rom 8:29 does not go with the rest of Romans. If that were the case then there would be many contradictions. How does this verse fit into your understanding?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth😉

Originally posted by Badwater
Prity, you seem to only want to quote Pauline letters, in keeping with Pauline Christology. Iraneaus would be proud. If you have no idea what I'm talking about then some seminary training might be in order before you start interpreting NT passages.

No, I don't know what you are talking about. And no I will not go to any worldy siminary training. I read and study the Bible whith prayer for understanding from the Lord. I am not part of any denomination, nor do I go to a church for they are more courupt than the world its self.

Originally posted by pritybetta
I am sorry you are atheist. You seem to have more understanding than most who claim to be saved.

I could never believe in a God who would condemn a righteous atheist. Then again, I don't believe in any God with the agency -- to condemn. It's counter-intuitive.

Reading your last post -- don't be afraid of the world outside and don't try to conquer it.

Originally posted by Badwater
On the contrary. The message of the entirety of the ministy of Jesus the Nazarene is that salvation is open to all. To choose to seize, to engage in that covenant with God; that is your right no matter who you are, and is central to his message of salvation. It's too bad that the self-righteous such as yourself would pervert that ministry by attempting to c ...[text shortened]... are empty and meaningless and have no bearing on my or any other person's choice of salvation.

You seem to be more self-righteous to claim you did something to get saved. I have no part in my salvaition, how is that being self-righteous? I do nothing for salvation, all the credit goes to the Lord. You seem to want the credit of 'choosing' or 'accepting'.

And you are wrong about doctors not being able to save someone who does not want it. My sister-in-law didn't want the doctors to save her but they did. She tried to kill herself and was uncontious when she was found. When she woke up she yelled and throw things at him for saving her.

Originally posted by pritybetta
And you are wrong about doctors not being able to save someone who does not want it. My sister-in-law didn't want the doctors to save her but they did. She tried to kill herself and was uncontious when she was found. When she woke up she yelled and throw things at him for saving her.

Truly, everybody is a 'child of God' (atheists substitute another metaphor).

Originally posted by muppyman
If God's plan of salvation can be stymied by His children not wanting to accept it, then it seems to put His omnipotence on shaky ground. By an act of His will the whole universe was created, but we can resist that will? Not the kind of heavenly father I would wish to call mine. No wonder I choose to be an atheist.

His omnipotence IS on shaky ground when it comes to our free choices. He has chosen it to be that way. He will make it almost impossible for you to choose against him by trying everything he can to persuade , seduce your heart and come into your life , but in the final reckoning he will not break down the very essence of you as a free sentient being to take you to heaven.
You will have to fight him tooth and nail to get away from heaven but he cannot "make" you go there. Heaven is not for conscripts. This is the agony of God's love , the overwhelming desire to see you happy pulling against the massive respect he has for your choices.

You see if God was to force you to be with him you would probably come up with the reverse argument and protest about a God who just created robots , or had no respect for human choices and did not respect your will. What kind of father would that be?

Originally posted by knightmeister
His omnipotence IS on shaky ground when it comes to our free choices.

I like this thought. It chimes with the concept of tikkun.

Originally posted by pritybetta
No, I don't know what you are talking about. And no I will not go to any worldy siminary training. I read and study the Bible whith prayer for understanding from the Lord. I am not part of any denomination, nor do I go to a church for they are more courupt than the world its self.

May I say you remind me of a verse from Ezekiel; "I sat not among the assembly of the mockers, nor rejoiced, I sat alone because of thy hand, for thou hast filled me with indignation, O Lord God of hosts"

Originally posted by pritybetta
You seem to be more self-righteous to claim you did something to get saved. I have no part in my salvaition, how is that being self-righteous? I do nothing for salvation, all the credit goes to the Lord. You seem to want the credit of 'choosing' or 'accepting'...

That has to be the most bizarre declaration I've heard in quite some time. Just exactly where in the ministry or sermons of Jesus did you come up with that notion?

Originally posted by knightmeister
His omnipotence IS on shaky ground when it comes to our free choices. He has chosen it to be that way. He will make it almost impossible for you to choose against him by trying everything he can to persuade , seduce your heart and come into your life , but in the final reckoning he will not break down the very essence of you as a free sentient being to ...[text shortened]... o respect for human choices and did not respect your will. What kind of father would that be?

What kind of father??? A far better one than any father who would condemn his children to an eternity of unimaginable agony for choosing to exercise the free will that was given to them by that same father.
With great respect, I submit that you have no way of knowing what argument or protest I may or may not come up with or pursue.

Originally posted by Badwater
That has to be the most bizarre declaration I've heard in quite some time. Just exactly where in the ministry or sermons of Jesus did you come up with that notion?

Try to relate to the person talking here instead of referring to some ground of reasoning. These people need help.

Originally posted by muppyman
What kind of father??? A far better one than any father who would condemn his children to an eternity of unimaginable agony for choosing to exercise the free will that was given to them by that same father.
With great respect, I submit that you have no way of knowing what argument or protest I may or may not come up with or pursue.

God doesn't condemn anybody who has not condemned themselves first. If you want to "exercise" your free will to choose against him he has given you that right. He will of course be heart broken and distraught and will walk through death and suffering to reach your heart but to turn you into a robot would be to take your soul from you and virtually kill you anyway.

If you prefer that God had made you a robot then you need to think a bit harder than you are about what that really means. If you have children you might understand the dilemma. If I had the power to turn my children into robots to protect them from rebelling against me at the very least it would be a last resort.