Spirituality
10 Apr 23
16 Apr 23
2 edits
@kellyjay said“Throughout our whole history” is rich, coming from you. Do you still think the history of the universe is only about 6,000 years long? Get a reality check: h. saps has been here several hundred thousand years. If we were as rapacious as you say, we would have extincted ourselves long before Moses. Most people are mostly pretty well-disposed towards their neighbors most of the time; sociopaths are the exceptions. If that were not so, we’d be burried in Olduvai Gorge along with ‘Lucy’s’ bones.
When you look at the world in your glass, do you see a world of people who do only good, or good and evil? Do you see the evil that man does restricted to only a small handful of people and not throughout our whole history, or does the whole body act good all of the time, and evil things are only done by the minority and then only by the evil people, not the common man and only in pockets of time here and there?
Actions and policies sometimes reach a level deserving the epithet “evil”; but I don’t judge what is in people’s hearts, as you evidently do.
What I see is you projecting your dogma about evil onto and Into others. This dogma has tainted your outlook on humanity.
16 Apr 23
@moonbus saidIt doesn't matter how long our history is there has never been a recorded time where we were not harming each other, and many times on a grand scale. Are you excusing these things as simply normal human behavior for us no big deal, seriously? If so, amazingly, I'm the one called having a low view of humanity. Your meta-narrative on humanity's beginning doesn't have good and evil other than very fluid human preferences in play so everything is simply, sH happens.
“Throughout our whole history” is rich, coming from you. Do you still think the history of the universe is only about 6,000 years long? Get a reality check: h. saps has been here several hundred thousand years. If we were as rapacious as you say, we would have extincted ourselves long before Moses. Most people are mostly pretty well-disposed towards their neighbors most of th ...[text shortened]... jecting your dogma about evil onto and Into others. This dogma has tainted your outlook on humanity.
I believe we started because God made us, yes, not backing away from that, and we fell into sin which is at the foundation of all of this. Without that there is no sin, no evil, just personal preferences, we tend to like the way things are going sometimes and not others, it is always a matter of culture. People are just behaving as people, they are only doing what they want. The strong always prevail over the weak in any way they want.
The abnormal would be caring for one another because there is no chemical means to create that, as there is no explanation for many things if we were to once again look at chemistry only at play with no design just chance and necessity. From that type of beginning of only chance and necessity, there is nothing in the material world where we can say hate, greed, and lust would be evil, in fact, those things would only be human nature on display, there is no scale anywhere other than what we temporarily place on ourselves that calls anything good or bad. Temporarily, because as we see in our history it's none stop.
God gave Moses a set of laws to teach us to live that guide us we can live by which shows us our corruption by our inability to live them out, that also puts into play God not letting us get out of hand and doing away with ourselves.
Judging others' hearts you are doing when you see all evil we are doing to one another in the here and now, and blowing it off as normal no big deal stuff, which I'm quite sure if someone does something to you and those you care about that you judge that to be wrong and could go to evil rather quickly. I'm just as sure if you were to do something to someone else you'd find an excuse for why it was okay when you did it.
Apologies for the book.
16 Apr 23
@kellyjay saidIf you believe that you are "equally as evil as a rapist", speak for yourself.
It doesn't matter how long our history is there has never been a recorded time where we were not harming each other, and many times on a grand scale. Are you excusing these things as simply normal human behavior for us no big deal, seriously? If so, amazingly, I'm the one called having a low view of humanity. Your meta-narrative on humanity's beginning doesn't have good and ...[text shortened]... to someone else you'd find an excuse for why it was okay when you did it.
Apologies for the book.
@kellyjay saidOf course there are "scales" most of them not "temporary" at all.
there is no scale anywhere other than what we temporarily place on ourselves that calls anything good or bad.
Human societies govern themselves with norms and values and traditions - including religious ones. There are laws too. They are "a scale".
If you truly believe that "there is no scale anywhere", then perhaps you are a sociopath.
If you truly believe you are "evil" and everbody is "evil", then perhaps you are a sociopath.
If you truly believe that your nature and character, morally speaking, makes you no different than a murderer or a child abuser, then perhaps you are a latent psychopath.
If you truly believe that you are unable to live a morally sound life without convincing yourself to be afraid of a God figure, then perhaps people around you should be relieved that you are superstitious.
16 Apr 23
@moonbus saidKellyJay’s versions of God, of Jesus and of mankind are truly miserable reflections of what he’s been taught in his bible group.
He looks at the world through a glass darkly. When one's own little fragment of mirror is cracked and stained, one thinks everything reflected in it, the whole world, is fractured and burnt.
16 Apr 23
@kellyjay saidWhat a pile of poorly written largely incomprehensible gobbledegook.
It doesn't matter how long our history is there has never been a recorded time where we were not harming each other, and many times on a grand scale. Are you excusing these things as simply normal human behavior for us no big deal, seriously? If so, amazingly, I'm the one called having a low view of humanity. Your meta-narrative on humanity's beginning doesn't have good and ...[text shortened]... to someone else you'd find an excuse for why it was okay when you did it.
Apologies for the book.
Especially the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs; I can barely make out what it is you are chuntering on about kellyjay.
16 Apr 23
@kellyjay saidI am not excusing violent or antisocial behavior. I am also not claiming that moral behavior is nothing but biochemistry.
It doesn't matter how long our history is there has never been a recorded time where we were not harming each other, and many times on a grand scale. Are you excusing these things as simply normal human behavior for us no big deal, seriously? If so, amazingly, I'm the one called having a low view of humanity. Your meta-narrative on humanity's beginning doesn't have good and ...[text shortened]... to someone else you'd find an excuse for why it was okay when you did it.
Apologies for the book.
I am saying that we are social animals and that morality is part of what makes us human and part of why we survived the last few hundred thousand years in a world where every other animal kills and eats whatever it can.
16 Apr 23
@moonbus saidWhat you are doing is saying that type of behavior is normal human activity throughout all time in every culture, in every period in time, in every society, it isn't a defect its normal human nature. Your explanation for it is it's always been there we got to eat. While good behavior you have a difficult time explaining, it isn't chemically produced, so you suggest it's a learned trait by claiming what, we selfishly thought about life and selfishness produced goodness, because we saw advantages to ourselves?
I am not excusing violent or antisocial behavior. I am also not claiming that moral behavior is nothing but biochemistry.
I am saying that we are social animals and that morality is part of what makes us human and part of why we survived the last few hundred thousand years in a world where every other animal kills and eats whatever it can.
Real love is looking out for the other, real goodness is taking care of them even if it costs us. In your worldview it sounds like you are saying selfishness is looking out for number one, if all of your love and goodness are simply because you are getting something out of it, can that really be called either real goodness or love, it is still all about you?
@kellyjay said“What you are doing is saying that … “. You put a lot of rubbish into other people’s mouths. Which says a lot about you, and nothing about me.
What you are doing is saying that type of behavior is normal human activity throughout all time in every culture, in every period in time, in every society, it isn't a defect its normal human nature. Your explanation for it is it's always been there we got to eat. While good behavior you have a difficult time explaining, it isn't chemically produced, so you suggest it's a le ...[text shortened]... ething out of it, can that really be called either real goodness or love, it is still all about you?
Selfless love is just as real as you make it.
@kellyjay saidMoral codes and morally sound behaviour make good sense and have contributed to the survival of groups of humans and of the human race as a whole. If you have "a difficult time explaining good behaviour", then that is your prerogative. Speak for yourself.
While good behavior you have a difficult time explaining, it isn't chemically produced, so you suggest it's a learned trait by claiming what, we selfishly thought about life and selfishness produced goodness, because we saw advantages to ourselves?
16 Apr 23
@kellyjay saidWhere did moonbus say this?
Real love is looking out for the other, real goodness is taking care of them even if it costs us. In your worldview it sounds like you are saying selfishness is looking out for number one, if all of your love and goodness are simply because you are getting something out of it, can that really be called either real goodness or love, it is still all about you?