Originally posted by JS357
He wrote something under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I lack that belief. But I lack belief in the father-god, the son-god, the spirit-god, and god, period.
What he intended to convey was obviously, not conveyed as well as other verses like "Jesus wept."
I lack that belief. But I lack belief in the father-god, the son-god, the spirit-god, and god, period.
What he intended to convey was obviously, not conveyed as well as other verses like "Jesus wept."
I will start another thread on that passage. You may explain to me why you think Jesus wept in John 11:35 - the shortest verse in the New Testament.
I'd like to know why you think Jesus wept there.
Originally posted by jaywillUh, Lazarus was a very dear friend of Jesus, one that he loved and he was sad his friend had died..........I lack that belief. But I lack belief in the father-god, the son-god, the spirit-god, and god, period.
What he intended to convey was obviously, not conveyed as well as other verses like "Jesus wept."
I will start another thread on that passage. You may explain to me why you think Jesus wept in [b]John 11:35 - the shortest verse in the New Testament.
I'd like to know why you think Jesus wept there.[/b]
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the absurdity of the trinity becomes clearer when one takes the bible in context rather than select verses with custom interpretations.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
the idea of a trinity was alien to paul.
What the Ante-Nicene Fathers Taught
THE ante-Nicene Fathers were acknowledged to have been leading religious teachers in the early centuries after Christ’s birth. What they taught is of interest.
Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is “other than the God who made all things.” He said that Jesus was inferior to God and “never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say.”
Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the “One true and only God,” who is “supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other.”
Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called God “the uncreated and imperishable and only true God.” He said that the Son “is next to the only omnipotent Father” but not equal to him.
Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: “The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent.” He also said: “There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone.”
Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is “the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all,” who “had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before,” such as the created prehuman Jesus.
Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that “the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence,” and that “compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light.”
Summing up the historical evidence, Alvan Lamson says in The Church of the First Three Centuries: “The modern popular doctrine of the Trinity . . . derives no support from the language of Justin [Martyr]: and this observation may be extended to all the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to all Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ. It is true, they speak of the Father, Son, and . . . holy Spirit, but not as co-equal, not as one numerical essence, not as Three in One, in any sense now admitted by Trinitarians. The very reverse is the fact.”
Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter.
There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead.”—The Triune God
Originally posted by RJHindsSo the one part of God that is not Jesus that gave him all the power and authority stepped down from this in charge position and is now not in charge but Jesus is now and the holy spirit has never been the head and in charge, right?
I didn't say I did not read anything you post from legitmate sources.
I admitted that I did not read one or two of your links but you and
robbie carobbie do the same thing. So what's the beef? 😏
Will he ever have a turn as he's been left out of that opportunity?
So this is still strange as the trinity doctine says they are all equal, all knowing, and all powerful, etc, etc.
So this doesn't fly with your comment, does it?
I'm reposting this as you did not answer it...
Originally posted by galveston75I do not believe God can be separated into parts and all authority
So the one part of God that is not Jesus that gave him all the power and authority stepped down from this in charge position and is now not in charge but Jesus is now and the holy spirit has never been the head and in charge, right?
Will he ever have a turn as he's been left out of that opportunity?
So this is still strange as the trinity doctine s ...[text shortened]... is doesn't fly with your comment, does it?
I'm reposting this as you did not answer it...
belongs to God, which consists of the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit. These three persons in the Trinity of God share in
the Authority. By becoming man, the Son had to humble himself
and give up the authority and glory He shared with the Father and
the Holy Spirit. After His death and resurrection He received back
the authority and glory that He had shared with the Father and the
Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is just as much God as the Father is
God. But to sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
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VoidSpirit says that the concept of the three-one God is alien to the Apostle Paul. I disagree.
the absurdity of the trinity becomes clearer when one takes the bible in context rather than select verses with custom interpretations.
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
the idea of a trinity was alien to paul.
In Romans 8:9-11 Paul uses titles in such an interchangeabe way that virtually he is saying -
When speaking of "the Spirit of God" he is speaking of "the Spirit of Christ".
When speaking of "the Spirit of Christ" he is speaking of "Christ"
When speaking of "Christ" he is speaking of "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead".
When speaking of an indwelling Divine Person Paul speaks of
1.) The INDWELLING - "Spirit of God".
2.) The INDWELLING - "Spirit of Christ".
3.) The INDWELLING - "Christ" .
4.) The INDWELLING - "Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead"
These sentencess are not scattered and isolated throughout the NT such that an excuse of artificial association could be made by VoidSpirit. Rather the concepts are written together practically in the same breath.
It is also not artificial association to draw upon parallel utterances that confirm these concepts.
On one hand "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead" must refer to the Spirit of the Father.
" ... just as Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father ..." (Rom. 5:4)
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life ..." (John 5:21)
"God has fully fulfilled this promose ... in raising up Jesus, as it is written in the seecond Psalm, "You are My Son; this day I have begotten You." " (Acts 13:33)
So the Spirit of the Father gave life to the dead Jesus His Son and rose Him from the dead. Paul teaches that this same Father Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will "also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit".
But the Apostle also definitely teaches Christ IS this divine "life giving Spirit" -
" ... the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
It is therfore quite reasonable that Paul should speak interchangeably of the life giving One Who indwells the Christians. He is "the Spirit of God" and also "Christ". He is "the Spirit of Christ" and He is also "the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead."
VoidSpirit is seeking to prohibit the use of the whole New Testament for evidence of the teaching of the New Testament.
Predictably, when the tactic fails with me, he will fall back on the entire Bible being myth anyway, so it really doesn't matter. Afterall, take it from him that Jesus taught Zen Buddhism anyway.
Originally posted by RJHindsI don't think that was what you said earlier. You said: "All authority has been given to the Son at present. He is the head of all."
I do not believe God can be separated into parts and all authority
belongs to God, which consists of the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit. These three persons in the Trinity of God share in
the Authority. By becoming man, the Son had to humble himself
and give up the authority and glory He shared with the Father and
the Holy Spirit. After His dea ...[text shortened]... t as much God as the Father is
God. But to sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.
But now their all equal you say? Is this your finale answer or will it change again?
And what scripture can you show that Jesus had this authority before he came to earth???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
And finally if they are all equal and all knowing and all powerful and all God as the trinity teaches, why can't we sin against the Holy Spirit but the Bible clearly says that the God part ( Jehovah ) and the other God part ( Jesus ) can forgive us?
I know this is probably too many questions at one time ( 2 ) but I really want these answers and even better the actual scriptures that back up your answers!
If you do teach this to others I'm sure you have the answers at your disposal.
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Originally posted by VoidSpiritLuke wrote the Acts of the Apostles by the way.
the absurdity of the trinity becomes clearer when one takes the bible in context rather than select verses with custom interpretations.
Act 17:31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] [b]man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.
the idea of a trinity was alien to paul.[/b]
How can you say, "the idea of a trinity was alien to paul" when he continually
wrote about God as the Father, Jesus the Christ as the Son of God and our Lord
and savior, and the Holy Spirit of God, by whom the believer is sealed for the
day of redemption. (See Ephesians 1:13,17; 2:18; 4:13,30; 5:5,18,20)
He does not speak of them all together very often, but here is one example:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of
your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who
is over all and through all and in all.
(Ephesians 4:4-6 NASB)
Paul identifies the Lord Jesus the Christ as fully God by the following:
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you
have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
(Colossian 2:9-10 NASB)
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are
complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
(Colossian 2:9-10 NKJV)
Paul warns against greiving the Holy Spirit in the following verse:
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of
redemption. (Ephesians 4:30 NASB)
And Jesus reveals how important the Holy Spirit is by say the following
“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever
blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never
has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
(Mark 3:28-29 NASB)
Originally posted by RJHindsto paul, the holy spirit and spirit of god are interchangeable terms used to describe god the father, not as different persons but as the one being.
Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles by the way.
How can you say, "the idea of a trinity was alien to paul" when he continually
wrote about God as the Father, Jesus the Christ as the Son of God and our Lord
and savior, and the Holy Spirit of God, by whom the believer is sealed for the
day of redemption. (See Ephesians 1:13,17; 2:18; 4:13,30; 5:5,18,20) ...[text shortened]... the Holy Spirit never
has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”
(Mark 3:28-29 NASB)
to paul, jesus christ was the son of god, saviour and messiah, he was god-like and lent the power of god and given temporary authority to act on god's behalf.
the narrative of the NT makes the above clear. the idea of the trinity is completely alien to anyone who wrote those original books, it was completely alien to every early christian; and it only came into dogma gradually over 300-400 years until at last it was voted on presided over by a pagan emperor, won by a close margin and those who didn't accept it were purged violently.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritWhy then is Christ identified as the creator of all things in the letter
to paul, the holy spirit and spirit of god are interchangeable terms used to describe god the father, not as different persons but as the one being.
to paul, jesus christ was the son of god, saviour and messiah, he was god-like and lent the power of god and given temporary authority to act on god's behalf.
the narrative of the NT makes the above clear ...[text shortened]... y a pagan emperor, won by a close margin and those who didn't accept it were purged violently.
to the Hebrews, which also points out that God called His Son "God"?
Why did Jesus tell his disciples that he would not leave them as
orphans, but that he would ask the Father to send them another
Helper, the Holy Spirit, to teach them while He was away?
Why did Peter say that when one lies to the Holy Spirit that he is
lying to God?
It appears to me that the apostles distinguished the identity of these
three and yet identified them as the one true God.
And again why would Jesus tell his disciples to baptize in the name
(singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
Originally posted by RJHindsGeeeez....you really don't listen and reason on the answers do you?
Why then is Christ identified as the creator of all things in the letter
to the Hebrews, which also points out that God called His Son "God"?
Why did Jesus tell his disciples that he would not leave them as
orphans, but that he would ask the Father to send them another
Helper, the Holy Spirit, to teach them while He was away?
Why did Peter say that ...[text shortened]... his disciples to baptize in the name
(singular) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
#1. Where does it say Jesus was the creator? Make sure you look at the scripture closely before you answer.
#2. Where does it ever say in the bible the Holy Spirit is God or another being? When that helper came, who saw it? How did it identify itself or did anyone ever see it?
#3 The Holy spirit is not God but his force or power that he uses just as you a human would usee your hand to do work with. It's his force make things happen. If one does not do what God wills, one is going against his force which is going against God.
And there is not ONE scripture that calls the Holy Spirit a God of any kind..............