14 Jan 12
RJH has said that Jesus raised himself up from death, resurrected himself.
Hebs 5:7 does not agree.....
Hebrews 5:7
New Life Version (NLV)
7 During the time Jesus lived on earth, He prayed and asked God with loud cries and tears. Jesus’ prayer was to God Who was able to save Him from death. God heard Christ because Christ honored God.
If Jesus knew he could raise himself from the dead, then this scripture means nothing. He would have simply done it and would not have prayed to God Jehovah in advance.
The Bible clearly states that "the dead know nothing and have no thoughts". Jesus would have to have thoughts and an alive mind to know when the 3 days were up and it was time to be resurrected.
14 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by galveston75
RJH has said that Jesus raised himself up from death, resurrected himself.
Hebs 5:7 does not agree.....
Hebrews 5:7
New Life Version (NLV)
7 During the time Jesus lived on earth, He prayed and asked God with loud cries and tears. Jesus’ prayer was to God Who was able to save Him from death. God heard Christ because Christ honored God.
If thoughts and an alive mind to know when the 3 days were up and it was time to be resurrected.
RJH has said that Jesus raised himself up from death, resurrected himself.
Hebs 5:7 does not agree.....
What else does the Bible say ?
We learn what is written. And we learn "again it is written."
Now the word of God again and also includes the revelation that Christ had the authority to lay down His life AND the authority to take it up again.
"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
No one takes it away from Me, because I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." (John 10:17,18)
I want to believe everything that the Scriptures tells me. Why should I fight against this verse and insist that others did indeed TAKE Jesus' life from Him ? He says no one took His life. He says His authority is to lay His life down and His authority is to take His life up again.
So it is written that God the Father raised Him. And again it is written that He said He would raise up the temple of His body in three days:
"The Jews then asnwerd and said to Him, What sign do you show us, seeing that you do these things ?
Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ... But He spoke of the temple of His body." (See John 1:18-21)
Here Jesus did not say "the Father will raise it up". He said "I will raise it up". Jesus says and does everything with great deliberatness.
Since the Bible says that GOD raised up Jesus from the dead, and that "the Word was God," there is no contradiction in this. But it is rather mysterious.
Hebrews 5:7
New Life Version (NLV)
7 During the time Jesus lived on earth, He prayed and asked God with loud cries and tears. Jesus’ prayer was to God Who was able to save Him from death. God heard Christ because Christ honored God.
This is not a good translation. He did not pray that God would save Him from death but that God would save Him "out of death".
I think the Recovery NT is better here - " This One, in the days of His flesh, having offered up both petitions and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him who was able to save Him OUT OF DEATH and having been heard because of His piety ..." (Hebrews 5:7 RcV my emphasis)
To be saved OUT OF DEATH means to be resurrected from the dead once having died. And I believe that that is the sense of the Greek. So I am taught.
If Jesus knew he could raise himself from the dead, then this scripture means nothing. He would have simply done it and would not have prayed to God Jehovah in advance.
No it does not mean nothing. The two passages on resurrection show an unrivaled harmony and union of the Father and the Son. This is a union far beyond the imagination of mankind. This is the Triune God.
The Bible clearly states that "the dead know nothing and have no thoughts". Jesus would have to have thoughts and an alive mind to know when the 3 days were up and it was time to be resurrected.
From the standpoint of the rest of us who live "under the sun" that is true. This Old Testament utterance is from the viewpoint of those alive on the earth.
From that viewpoint the dead know nothing, do nothing, and are nothing any longer. There is really no contradiction.
14 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillSo Heb 5:7 is wrong?RJH has said that Jesus raised himself up from death, resurrected himself.
Hebs 5:7 does not agree.....
What [b] else does the Bible say ?
We learn what is written. And we learn "again it is written."
Now the word of God again and also includes the revelation that Christ had the authority to lay down His life AND ...[text shortened]... , do nothing, and are nothing any longer. There is really no contradiction.[/b]
14 Jan 12
1 edit
This is not what Jesus was saying that he had the power to raise himself up as he was in fact dead and did not exist.
Try a few other Bible's versions for a clearer understanding...
John 10:17
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
17Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
John 10:17
American Standard Version (ASV)
17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
John 10:17
Amplified Bible (AMP)
17For this [reason] the Father loves Me, because I lay down My [own] life--to take it back again.
John 10:17
Common English Bible (CEB)
17 “This is why the Father loves me: I give up my life so that I can take it up again.
John 10:17
Good News Translation (GNT)
17 The Father loves me because I am willing to give up my life, in order that I may receive it back again.
Are you getting the point here? Nothing says he raised himself back to life. He is simply saying he will be given his life back to him ( by his Father ) and would accept his life back.
15 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
to paul, the holy spirit and spirit of god are interchangeable terms used to describe god the father, not as different persons but as the one being.
to paul, jesus christ was the son of god, saviour and messiah, he was god-like and lent the power of god and given temporary authority to act on god's behalf.
the narrative of the NT makes the above clear ...[text shortened]... y a pagan emperor, won by a close margin and those who didn't accept it were purged violently.
to paul, jesus christ was the son of god, saviour and messiah, he was god-like and lent the power of god and given temporary authority to act on god's behalf.
Here again the idea of a TEMPORARY Christ is wrong. Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8) .
Some may argue that First Corinthians 15:24 - 28 speaks of Christ finally subjecting Himself to God that He may be all in all. And it is true that the millennial kingdom includes the putting under the feet of Jesus the last of His enemies. And He does deliver up the kingdom "to His God and Father".
But it is pure assumption on anyone's part that that means a relinquishing of any authority of Christ. He may deliver up the kingdom to His God and Father at the end of the millennium. But suppose the God and Father still intends that Christ reign forever and ever ?
There is no jealousy or competition or rivalry among the Three of the Trinity.
Now, let us consider Paul's word in Ephesians -
"To Him [God] be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen." (Eph. 3:20,21)
There is nothing "temporary" about the glorification of God and Christ in the church here. The splendour, the glory, the divine radiance of dignity and honor extends to "ALL THE GENERATIONS FOREVER AND EVER".
Since the THRONE of the SON is "forever and ever" - "But of the SON, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ..." (Hebrews 1:8)
The throne of the Son is not temporary. It is forever and ever. And His glorious Headship is for all the generations forever and ever. In spite of the great manifestation of His humility and humbleness at the end of the 1,000 year millennial kingdom, His throne is still "forever and ever". And the glory of God and of Christ in the church is throughout " ALL THE GENERATIONS FOREVER AND EVER."
THE ETERNAL PURPOSE -
The purpose that God has planned in Christ is called not the temporary purpose but "the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Eph. 3:11)
THE SONS OF GOD REIGN FOREVER AND EVER
Christ is the Leading Elder Brother as the Firstborn Son of God. If the following sons reign forever and ever, it is impossible that Christ the Firstborn Son would not reign forever and ever.
"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7)
" .. for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 22:5)
If the many sons reign with Him forever and ever we know that Christ, the Firstborn Son of God has a reign eternal and not temporary.
15 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75Can you explain what Peter is saying in these verses?
RJH has said that Jesus raised himself up from death, resurrected himself.
Hebs 5:7 does not agree.....
Hebrews 5:7
New Life Version (NLV)
7 During the time Jesus lived on earth, He prayed and asked God with loud cries and tears. Jesus’ prayer was to God Who was able to save Him from death. God heard Christ because Christ honored God.
If ...[text shortened]... thoughts and an alive mind to know when the 3 days were up and it was time to be resurrected.
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He
might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive
by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in
prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine
longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being
prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through
water. (1 Peter 3:18-20 NKJV)
15 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillabsolutely not. you're misinterpreting the verses. clearly the bible states that jesus's power is borrowed from god, that he is on a mission from god, and once his mission is complete, his authority will end and god will be one in all. this has been pointed out before and you have not been able to refute it.to paul, jesus christ was the son of god, saviour and messiah, he was god-like and lent the power of god and given temporary authority to act on god's behalf.
Here again the idea of a TEMPORARY Christ is wrong. Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever [b](Hebrews 13:8) .
1 chr 15:24-28
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
it is inconceivable that the person who wrote this had any inkling of a "trinity."
it is very clearly spelled out so that there is no ambiguity. it says: someone put authority under chirst. this someone gave christ a mission to accomplish with that authority. that this someone is god himself, that god will reclaim that authority once the mission is accomplished.
christ's power is temporary. the bible confirms it and your trinity doctrine is wrong.
Some may argue that First Corinthians 15:24 - 28 speaks of Christ finally subjecting Himself to God that He may be all in all. And it is true that the millennial kingdom includes the putting under the feet of Jesus the last of His enemies. And He does deliver up the kingdom "to His God and Father".
But it is pure assumption on anyone's part that that means a relinquishing of any authority of Christ. He may deliver up the kingdom to His God and Father at the end of the millennium. But suppose the God and Father still intends that Christ reign forever and ever ?
so what? no argument has been made that his reign over humanity is temporary. all this means is that chirst has been chosen to rule over humans as a subject of god, it does not mean that christ is god. the verses confirm that christ is not god.
the bible paints the picture of christ with god-like powers which were granted to him by god so that he can commit himself to doing god's will and accomplishing his mission given to him by god and once his mission is done, he will no longer have god-like powers.
that is by no means compatible with the trinity doctrine. you have to face the facts that the trinity is an extra-biblical doctrine.
There is no jealousy or competition or rivalry among the Three of the Trinity.
correct, because there is no trinity.
15 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHindsSure but what does this have to do with your claim that Jesus raised himself up from death?
Can you explain what Peter is saying in these verses?
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He
might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive
by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in
prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine
longsuffering waited in the ...[text shortened]... repared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through
water. (1 Peter 3:18-20 NKJV)
15 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
absolutely not. you're misinterpreting the verses. clearly the bible states that jesus's power is borrowed from god, that he is on a mission from god, and once his mission is complete, his authority will end and god will be one in all. this has been pointed out before and you have not been able to refute it.
1 chr 15:24-28
Then the end will come, w lry among the Three of the Trinity.
[/quote]
correct, because there is no trinity.
.
jw: But suppose the God and Father still intends that Christ reign forever and ever ?
Gl: so what?
So that is exactly what the Bible teaches. Christ as the Godman reigns on His throne eternally.
"But of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever ..." " (Heb. 1:8)
15 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by VoidSpirit
absolutely not. you're misinterpreting the verses. clearly the bible states that jesus's power is borrowed from god, that he is on a mission from god, and once his mission is complete, his authority will end and god will be one in all. this has been pointed out before and you have not been able to refute it.
1 chr 15:24-28
Then the end will come, w lry among the Three of the Trinity.
[/quote]
correct, because there is no trinity.
jw:
There is no jealousy or competition or rivalry among the Three of the Trinity.
Gl:
correct, because there is no trinity.
No, not because there is no Trinity. But because He who says "Let Us make man in Our image ..." (Gen. 1:26) and the One who said "My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23) is eternal life and love -
"God is love" (1 John 4:8)
15 Jan 12
VoidSpirit informs us that there is no evidence in Paul's thought for the Triune God. There is much more evidence for a Three-One God then there is that Jesus Christ was a Zen Buddhist guru.
The latter is truely non-existent. Watch now as VoidSpirit's wild imagination really twists Scripture to arrive at a "Jesus - the Zen Master".
15 Jan 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI'm really starting to believe that the trinity is so ingrained into their minds that no matter what is shown from the bible or all the outside resources, even from biblical historians, they are just not going to see it. Their eyes are open and I really think they read our post but they just don't see with their minds.
absolutely not. you're misinterpreting the verses. clearly the bible states that jesus's power is borrowed from god, that he is on a mission from god, and once his mission is complete, his authority will end and god will be one in all. this has been pointed out before and you have not been able to refute it.
1 chr 15:24-28
Then the end will come, w ...[text shortened]... lry among the Three of the Trinity.
[/quote]
correct, because there is no trinity.
I've discussed the trinity with hundreds of people over the years and some do stop and think it out and to some extent reason on it and many finally put the dots together and finally open their minds and finally see what they couldn't before.
But one has to want to know the truth on this because as long as they keep it closed it will never work....
15 Jan 12
Originally posted by galveston75I don't want to get too long here so I'll just concentrate on #1 now.
Geeeez....you really don't listen and reason on the answers do you?
#1. Where does it say Jesus was the creator? Make sure you look at the scripture closely before you answer.
#2. Where does it ever say in the bible the Holy Spirit is God or another being? When that helper came, who saw it? How did it identify itself or did anyone ever see it?
# ...[text shortened]...
And there is not ONE scripture that calls the Holy Spirit a God of any kind..............
From the following verses it is revealed that Christ, the Son of God
is called God by God and that nothing was created or made in the
beginning that He did not create or make.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or
principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for
Him. (Colossians 1:15-16 NKJV)
He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him,
and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:2-3 NKJV)
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to
the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by
His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also
He made the worlds;
But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
(Hebrews 1:1-2,8-10 NKJV)
15 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75
This is not what Jesus was saying that he had the power to raise himself up as he was in fact dead and did not exist.
Try a few other Bible's versions for a clearer understanding...
John 10:17
21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
17Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again.
John 10:17
A ...[text shortened]... saying he will be given his life back to him ( by his Father ) and would accept his life back.
Are you getting the point here? Nothing says he raised himself back to life. He is simply saying he will be given his life back to him ( by his Father ) and would accept his life back.
"The Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)
Therefore God raising Jesus from the dead also includes the Logos, the Word Who was God.
"Destroy this temple and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP" (John 2:19)
15 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillSo no comments on all those scriptures huh?Are you getting the point here? Nothing says he raised himself back to life. He is simply saying he will be given his life back to him ( by his Father ) and would accept his life back.
[b] "The Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)
Therefore God raising Jesus from the dead also includes the Logos, the Word Who was God.
"Destroy this temple and in three days I WILL RAISE IT UP" (John 2:19) [/b]
Did Jesus mean that he would resurrect himself from the dead? Does that mean that Jesus is God, because Acts 2:32 says, “This Jesus God raised up”? Not at all. Such a view would conflict with Galatians 1:1, which ascribes the resurrection of Jesus to the Father, not to the Son. Using a similar mode of expression, at Luke 8:48 Jesus is quoted as saying to a woman: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she heal herself? No; it was power from God through Christ that healed her because she had faith. (Luke 8:46; Acts 10:38) Likewise, by his perfect obedience as a human, Jesus provided the moral basis for the Father to raise him from the dead, thus acknowledging Jesus as God’s Son. Because of Jesus’ faithful course of life, it could properly be said that "Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection".
Says A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament: “Recall [John] 2:19 where Jesus said: ‘And in three days I will raise it up.’ He did not mean that he will raise himself from the dead independently of the Father as the active agent (Rom. 8:11).”—(New York, 1932), Vol. V, p. 183.
(Romans 8:11) If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.
This clearly says that someone else raised Jesus from the dead. It does not in anyway say Jesus raised himself.