It is Easy to Be Saved Forever

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Like I earlier contended: when in Rome you must first take on the local habits to be able to trancsend them. If you abbhor murder, for example, you must walk with murderers to be able to really change their ways. As did Jesus, did he not? Intellectual veneer? I think not . For this is one of the most down-to-earth truths I can think of.
As for why hu ...[text shortened]... that breaks the back of this sorded hallucination that we call everyday life (and DEATH). Deal?

no sorry not convinced, call me cynical if you like, but im not buying it Karoly, for we are not talking of changing others, but ourselves, for there are many vessels in a house hold, some for an honourable purpose others for a less honourable purpose. to state that we need to see a murder to know that murder is wrong, mmm, i dont think that is true. Have you ever seen a murdered person? Did it change your perception of murder? perhaps you knew before hand in some capacity? perhaps your conscience or sence of morality dictated it to you? i understand what you are saying, but only to an extent, for there is no doubt that personal testimony is valuable. who best to warn of the dangers of alcoholism than a reformed alcoholic. Do we need to become alcoholics to know that it is unwise? i dont really think so. do you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no sorry not convinced, call me cynical if you like, but im not buying it Karoly, for we are not talking of changing others, but ourselves, for there are many vessels in a house hold, some for an honourable purpose others for a less honourable purpose. to state that we need to see a murder to know that murder is wrong, mmm, i dont think that is true ...[text shortened]... c. Do we need to become alcoholics to know that it is unwise? i dont really think so. do you?

Indeed I have not seen a murdered body, but I have been prepared by the school of hard knocks for a great many things. For example, if you see someones guts spilling on the floor would you have the presence of mind and basic medical knowledge to sew him/her up?
You may wonder what this has to do with spirituality, dear reader. The understanding of the physical nature of our present tendencies is important to go beyond them.
What class of person is one who always walks their own walk? Who can "interact successfully" with any person or situation they happen upon? Who is ever inward looking and never seeking gratification of the senses? Who can see , at all times, the difference between that which is permanent and that which is transient? etc.
This person defies all description or pidgeon-holing.

Nothing easy or hard about being saved.

Dont be one who cries out for water despite being in the midst of a torrential downpour!

Find your own 'salvation' with dilligence.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Indeed I have not seen a murdered body, but I have been prepared by the school of hard knocks for a great many things. For example, if you see someones guts spilling on the floor would you have the presence of mind and basic medical knowledge to sew him/her up?
You may wonder what this has to do with spirituality, dear reader. The understanding of the being in the midst of a torrential downpour!

Find your own 'salvation' with dilligence.

yes quite however you have neglected to tackle the question and instead have given vent to rather ethereal sayings and mystical utterances when nothing more than simple reason would have sufficed. If i want to remain devoid of violent thoughts, why would i take violent imagery into my mind? yes dear reader do not be fooled by vague references to transcendence, the fact of the matter is that we are effected by what we take into our minds. if one wants to remain virtuous and useful, one needs to avoid polluting ones mind with imagery which shall defile it!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes quite however you have neglected to tackle the question and instead have given vent to rather ethereal sayings and mystical utterances when nothing more than simple reason would have sufficed. If i want to remain devoid of violent thoughts, why would i take violent imagery into my mind? yes dear reader do not be fooled by vague references to tr ...[text shortened]... virtuous and useful, one needs to avoid polluting ones mind with imagery which shall defile it!

Don't watch the films then.

Personally i like to watch a good 'testing' film every now and again.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Don't watch the films then.

Personally i like to watch a good 'testing' film every now and again.

yes its all very well saying dont watch the films, but there are reasons why it may be personally objectionable. Perhaps you may like to answer some of the questions that i raised dear Noobster. For example why is it construed that watching persons being murdered, blown up, mutilated, decapitated etc etc is entertaining? Do you find them entertaining? If so , why? i realise that as a free moral agent you may do as you wish, i do not of course judge you in any manner in this capacity, i am just interested in trying to understand the why? of it!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes its all very well saying dont watch the films, but there are reasons why it may be personally objectionable. Perhaps you may like to answer some of the questions that i raised dear Noobster. For example why is it construed that watching persons being murdered, blown up, mutilated, decapitated etc etc is entertaining? Do you find them entertain ...[text shortened]... you in any manner in this capacity, i am just interested in trying to understand the why? of it!

You may very well find it personally objectionable, but there are many things in life i find objectionable, but that's the way it goes.

First things first, they are films, not reality. I know i am not watching someone really being killed, murdered, blown up etc etc. I wouldn't like to watch that in real life, although i have seen various videos on the internet that do contain such images. But a long time ago.

I think though it has to be seen in the context of the film. For instance take the film Gladiator, you can hardly have a film about gladiators in ancient Rome without showing blood and guts, it just wouldn't be realistic.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
You may very well find it personally objectionable, but there are many things in life i find objectionable, but that's the way it goes.

First things first, they are films, not reality. I know i am not watching someone really being killed, murdered, blown up etc etc. I wouldn't like to watch that in real life, although i have seen various videos on the ...[text shortened]... out gladiators in ancient Rome without showing blood and guts, it just wouldn't be realistic.

then what is the difference Noobster between watching it on Dvd than in visiting the Colosseum in first century Rome if you were alive at the time? I personally cannot see any difference, for both are simply different forms of the same type of entertainment. To state that one is real and the other stage managed is hardly a good argument for it makes its appeal to the senses in the same way. Also you have still not tackled why watching persons being killed is viewed as entertainment.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
then what is the difference Noobster between watching it on Dvd than in visiting the Colosseum in first century Rome if you were alive at the time? I personally cannot see any difference, for both are simply different forms of the same type of entertainment. To state that one is real and the other stage managed is hardly a good argument for it makes ...[text shortened]... . Also you have still not tackled why watching persons being killed is viewed as entertainment.

Because one is real and the other isn't. I know when i'm watching a film, know one is being killed, no one is being hurt and it's a production. I don't know how i would feel being in the Colosseum watching humans being killed, most probably reviled.

Why is it entertaining? Good question. I guess it falls under two categories.

1. It's amusing. In the sense that it's so ridiculous it doesn't have any basis in reality. Evil Dead and Day of the Dead spring to mind. Or such bad special effects that it doesn't even look realistic.

2. When 'nasty' scenes of films are produced properly so they look real, more often than not it isn't particularly entertaining. I guess it's like going on a rollercoaster, it's scary and not very nice but you still do it.

I like my hard hitting films, i never used to watch them because my ex and current girlfriend don't like them, but i do. I guess i like to 'emotionally challenge myself'.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Because one is real and the other isn't. I know when i'm watching a film, know one is being killed, no one is being hurt and it's a production. I don't know how i would feel being in the Colosseum watching humans being killed, most probably reviled.

Why is it entertaining? Good question. I guess it falls under two categories.

1. It's amusing. In t ...[text shortened]... end don't like them, but i do. I guess i like to 'emotionally challenge myself'.

ok, i understand, now here is a question, do you think that watching movies has an emotional impact on a person ( i think that you intimated that it did, but i just want to be sure)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok, i understand, now here is a question, do you think that watching movies has an emotional impact on a person ( i think that you intimated that it did, but i just want to be sure)

For sure.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes quite however you have neglected to tackle the question and instead have given vent to rather ethereal sayings and mystical utterances when nothing more than simple reason would have sufficed. If i want to remain devoid of violent thoughts, why would i take violent imagery into my mind? yes dear reader do not be fooled by vague references to tr ...[text shortened]... virtuous and useful, one needs to avoid polluting ones mind with imagery which shall defile it!

I did answer. My quote from Burroughs goes unchallenged! It seems to imply that we are hard wired for competition and domination. Its in your genes. You cant escape it.I think a couple of Proper Knobs comments seem to imply just this.
Couple of points.
1.God is all things so we can make an error(and do so daily) to suggest that God is only found in the beautiful/good/true things in life. We can often overlook situations that may require our help,(or just learning opportunites). You program your brain everyday by what you put in it ,(I think you said as much), but the origonal survival instincts/programming should be overlapped with a new kind of thinking. All this sort of stuff relates to the fear of death, which not very many are immune from. Lets live and incorporate and change the world from the inside. Lets transcend survival and really start living.

2There is a difference to making mystical utterances and living them. Can you really stand behind all the glut of points you make? For a lot of them are taken from a book and repeated by others to make them true.

3.Humanity has come a long way from ancient Rome, humanitarianism has progressed a damn long way. I'm not saying society is perfect, or even great, by any means, however I get the feeling that we are living in a more "evolved" time than any of the past histories seem to suggest. I believe we have the tools necessary now to "unify" the planet, for surely that is a common goal ,(whether realized or not), of every member of society. Remember Jesus, (and also the bhudda who confronted a mass murderer and converted him on the spot). Would you have not interacted with Jesus if He was seen to be mixing with questionable types? Would you have passed him by in your pride?

Ok now having stated my point in a general way I'm sure you can infer a general answer to your question. Feel free to ask me more if you dont get my gist, for it is a gist and not a fast-hardened answer.

Not all people are cut out for mixing with violence and other abbhorrent behaviours, and I IN NO WAY AM CONDONING THIS LINE OF THOUGHT FOR EVERYONE.All I say is get in touch with your dharma and follow it fearlessly to your goal.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I did answer. My quote from Burroughs goes unchallenged! It seems to imply that we are hard wired for competition and domination. Its in your genes. You cant escape it.I think a couple of Proper Knobs comments seem to imply just this.
Couple of points.
1.God is all things so we can make an error(and do so daily) to suggest that God is only found in t EVERYONE.All I say is get in touch with your dharma and follow it fearlessly to your goal.

mmm, lets take a movie like braveheart. who liked and watched braveheart? i walked out of the cinema after William Wallaces wife got tied to a post and had her throat slit! Why should i watch that as entertaining? So out i stormed and i have not endeavoured to watch it since. It was anti English to the extreme, appealed to negative base emotions, incited not to love but to hatred, why should i put myself in such a position? Why should i let some film executive mess with my emotions? Its against the punk ethos, get up , get out, be what you are!

one must be all things to all persons but that does not mean we need to share in their iniquity!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
mmm, lets take a movie like braveheart. who liked and watched braveheart? i walked out of the cinema after William Wallaces wife got tied to a post and had her throat slit! Why should i watch that as entertaining? So out i stormed and i have not endeavoured to watch it since. It was anti English to the extreme, appealed to negative base emotions ...[text shortened]... one must be all things to all persons but that does not mean we need to share in their iniquity!

Hang on a minute.

You walked out after about 30mins and the film runs for nearly 3hrs, yet you know what it was all about?!

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Hang on a minute.

You walked out after about 30mins and the film runs for nearly 3hrs, yet you know what it was all about?!

yup, that is correct! you must realise that i am not averse to conversing about its dangers with others, nor of forming an opinion after tasting it! Worst and most hurtful aspect is that they have named a part of Glen Nevis after it ( Not Ben but Glen Nevis, a rather beautiful walk at the foot of the mountain)

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yup, that is correct! you must realise that i am not averse to conversing about its dangers with others, nor of forming an opinion after tasting it! Worst and most hurtful aspect is that they have named a part of Glen Nevis after it ( Not Ben but Glen Nevis, a rather beautiful walk at the foot of the mountain)

It's dangers?!

What do you think those are Rob?