Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Ka'ba is symbolic, not literally a presence of God on Earth. It's not like communion.
i object to the practice, its wholly idolatrous. Moses, whom you people respect as a Prophet warned against setting up a stone as a show-piece and venerating it.
(Leviticus 26:1)“‘you must not make valueless gods for yourselves, and you must not set up a carved image or a sacred pillar for yourselves, and you must not put a stone as a showpiece in your land in order to bow down toward it; for I am Jehovah your God. . .
Originally posted by scherzo======================================
[b]But if you confessed to the Lord Jesus that you are a sinner, and asked that His precious blood would cleanse you from all of your sins, the obstacle would be removed. Then the Holy Spirit would bear witness with your innermost being and you would realize God Himself rising up in your heart.
I'll do that when I see you praying in the direction of ...[text shortened]... during Ramadan, giving the Declaration of Faith, making the pilgrimage, and paying the zakat.[/b]
I'll do that when I see you praying in the direction of the Ka'aba 5 times daily, fasting during Ramadan, giving the Declaration of Faith, making the pilgrimage, and paying the zakat.
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But if I am doing all these things and cannot say that I know God, of what profit is it ?
It is little comfort to me to be worshipping "correctly" and still be "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
Originally posted by scherzoI think your reply about the Ka'ba that "Its not like communion" is a broad brushed generalization on your part.
The Ka'ba is symbolic, not literally a presence of God on Earth. It's not like communion.
Just as you wish others to recognize that there are differences in the beliefs of various Moslems, so also you surely know that "real presence" about the elements in "communion" is not universally believed among all Christian groups.
Not all Christians regard the wine and bread at "communion" as the actual physical blood and physical body of Jesus, but symbolic elements.
Originally posted by jaywillThere is no profit in it; it must be sincere. Which was my point. You can't say that I should accept Christ as the son of God and the savior of Mankind without me saying that you should accept that the Prophet Muhammed was the Final Messenger of ALLAH SWT Whose word is dictated in the Holy Qur'an.
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I'll do that when I see you praying in the direction of the Ka'aba 5 times daily, fasting during Ramadan, giving the Declaration of Faith, making the pilgrimage, and paying the zakat.
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But if I am doing all these things and cannot say that I know God, of what ...[text shortened]... worshipping "correctly" and still be "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) [/b]
Originally posted by scherzoI ws speaking of knowing God. That is having intimate fellowship and communin with God. You sounded rather unsure about whether you have had that kind of fellowship.
There is no profit in it; it must be sincere. Which was my point. You can't say that I should accept Christ as the son of God and the savior of Mankind without me saying that you should accept that the Prophet Muhammed was the Final Messenger of ALLAH SWT Whose word is dictated in the Holy Qur'an.
God desires that you would have that kind of fellowship with Him.
Originally posted by jaywillIt is not for me to know what He thinks.
I ws speaking of knowing God. That is having intimate fellowship and communin with God. You sounded rather unsure about whether you have had that kind of fellowship.
God desires that you would have that kind of fellowship with Him.
Let me now find problem passages with my own OP.
Consider this passage from Matthew:
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 5:20)
Wouldn't this suggest that it is not easy to be saved forever ?
Wouldn't this suggest that without a surpassing righteousness no one could be saved forever ?
This passage seems to brush the cat's fur the wrong way. We must accept it. We should say a hearty "Amen" to all that the word of God says.
Before I deal with this passage I would pose a question.
I used the phrase "saved forever" and here we read "enter into the kingdom of the heavens". Are the two phrases exactly equivalent ?
Can we find indications that one may be saved forever yet not enter into the kingdom of the heavens ?
If so then the OP possibly still applies. That is it could be easy to be saved forever yet not easy to enter into the kingdom of the heavens.
One thing in the immediate context of Matthew 5:20, Christ did teach that in the kingdom of the heavens there will be differing degrees of repute according to different degrees of concurrence with His will.
Look at the immediate preceeding verse 19:
"Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whosever practices them and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)
Since both participants seem to be in the kingdom of the heavens, both thier levels of righteousness must have exceeded that of the scribes and pharisees.
Yet there seems to be two different statuses for them. One will be called least in the kingdom of the heavens. And the other will be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.
(I believe that Christ's words means that the constituents are IN the kingdom and not simply that the calling of what they are is taking place in the kingdom.)
Two people are in the kingdom of the heavens. Both must have had a righteousness which exceeds that of the hypocritical scribes and pharisees. Yet one is called least in the kingdom of the heavens and the other is called great in the kingdom of the heavens. And this designation is related to thier righteousness and their teaching.
I'll continue latter.
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"Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whosever practices them and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)
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Let's let the first disciple be called LK (least in the kingdom of the heavens).
Let's let the second disciple be called GK (great in the kingdom of the heavens).
Both LK and GK are in the kingdom of the heavens. Yet there is some distance between them as to harmony with the will of God. Otherwise one would not have a status of "least" and the other a status of "great".
If there is a distance in obedience between LK and GK, and IF both are in the kingdom of the heavens, then some logical conclusions occur to me:
1.) Both LK and GK have been granted eternal life.
2.) Both LK and GK must have been eternally redeemed.
3.) Both must have had all thier sins as unbelievers forgiven to even participate in the kingdom of the heavens.
4.) But SINCE they became disciples they had different levels of obedience:
One annuls some of the commandments and taught men so.
One did not annul the commandments and taught man not to.
5.) There must be forgiveness of a greater amount for LK since he was short of obedience on this point. There must be the need for less forgiveness for GK because he was not short on this point.
(This is forgiveness of wrong doings SINCE they entered into discipleship)
Since the kingdom of the heavens in the passage seems to refer to a coming age the implication is that there is still a need for forgiveness in a coming age for those who are saved into that age.
This passage proves that in the coming age there can be forgiveness -
"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the one to come." (Matt. 12:32)
The implication of this verse is that there can forgiveness in the coming age, the age of the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens - "forgiven him ... in the age to come"
Logically, we can conclude the following:
Sinners in this age, the age of the church, may receive forgiveness of all their sins which they have commited up until the time they become believers in Christ.
Because they have received forgiveness they are granted eternal life.
Because they have received eternal life they are qualified to participate in the coming age when the kingdom of the heavens is manifested.
Because they have righteousness that exceeds the scribes and pharisees they may enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Being qualified to participate and actually entering in are distinct matters.
Because LK annulled some of the commandments and taught men to do so his status is lower in the kingdom of the heavens.
Beecause GK did not annulled the commandments and taught men not to his status is higher in the kingdom of the heavens.
Therefore, this passage Matthew 5:19 does not prove that it is not easy to be saved forever. However, it does prove that after being saved forever one may relegate for himself a lower status in the kingdom of the heavens as opposed to a higher status in that kingdom of the heavens.
It also proves, in conjunction with Matthew 12:32 that there are at least TWO kinds of forgiveness of God towards sinners:
1.) There is a forgiveness which relates to one receiving eternal life rather than eternal damnation.
2.) There is a forgiveness which relates to one's status in the kingdom of the heavens after being eternally saved.
Aside from the matter of entering into the kingdom of the heavens or the position of dignity held in that kingdom in the coming age, it is still easy to be saved forever by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus with believing as Romans 10 teaches.
The moral distance between LK and GK must have been bridged by Christ's forgiveness "in the age to come" . The forgiveness of the church age qualified both to have eternal life. The forgivenesss of Christ to LK in the age to come is not related to his eternal destiny but to his position in the kingdom of the heavens.
Originally posted by josephwI agree with you although I know my pastor does not. Apparently, "once saved always saved" is not a Lutheran tenet.
Yes, it is easy for us to be saved, but as jaywill said, Jesus paid a terrible price for our redemption.
But you are correct in saying "salvation" is a gift received by faith in the Son of God and His redemptive work on the cross on our behalf.
Salvation, in the context of man being "saved" from the penalty of death and eternal separation from God, is ...[text shortened]... is a complete salvation. Once received it can never be lost, nor will it ever be taken away.