20 Feb 10
Originally posted by jaywillEasy for someone who's never been to a Muslim country to say that. I know you haven't been to a Muslim country because under no circumstances does fear of death motivate young people to convert out.
Islam is the fastest growing enforced and coercive religion. Many young people are afraid to leave it for fear of being killed.
I don't consider that a voluntary growth of a faith.
And, enforced and coercive? In Saudi Arabia maybe. But it's growing in China too, and you can't call China's government Islamic. Why would they enforce something that they're not a part of?
20 Feb 10
6 edits
Originally posted by scherzo==============================================
Easy for someone who's never been to a Muslim country to say that. I know you haven't been to a Muslim country because under no circumstances does fear of death motivate young people to convert out.
And, enforced and coercive? In Saudi Arabia maybe. But it's growing in China too, and you can't call China's government Islamic. Why would they enforce something that they're not a part of?
Easy for someone who's never been to a Muslim country to say that. I know you haven't been to a Muslim country because under no circumstances does fear of death motivate young people to convert out.
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You are misrepresenting what I said. I said fear of death prevents some young people from changing from the Moslem religion they were brought up in. I did not say fear of death motivates them to convert out. Though that may be true in some cases.
Ravi Zacharias who is an Indian has been to many "Moslem countries" and spoken to many Moslem students. And he informed me that fear of serious reprocussions including execution prevents many of them leaving Islam.
I think Ravi Zacharias is a fairminded person and I trust his word on the matter.
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And, enforced and coercive? In Saudi Arabia maybe. But it's growing in China too, and you can't call China's government Islamic. Why would they enforce something that they're not a part of?
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I did not say Islam was not growing. I would expect Islam to grow.
My comment did not deny the growth of Islam. My comment was that the boast of Islam being as the "fastest growing religion" I think is misrepresentative.
Fear of death prevents some people from exploring other faiths and possibly changing faiths. That is coercive, threatening, and oppressive.
21 Feb 10
Originally posted by jaywillWhat I'm saying is, with the exception of some ultraconservative families and the government of Saudi Arabia, there is simply no threat of death when people convert out. They'll be shunned somewhat socially, but that's the case in any religion -- imagine if a Mexican converted to Islam, the shunning he would receive from his Catholic neighbors. When Cassius Clay converted to Islam and became Muhammed Ali, many Christians began vilifying him.
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Easy for someone who's never been to a Muslim country to say that. I know you haven't been to a Muslim country because under no circumstances does fear of death motivate young people to convert out.
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You are misrepresenting what I said. I said fear of dea ...[text shortened]... er faiths and possibly changing faiths. That is coercive, threatening, and oppressive.[/b]
Fear of death is not a factor. Although fear of social isolation is, that is not specific to Islam.
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by scherzoIf I were you I would not boast that Islam is the fastest growing religion regardless. Is Michael Jackson represent some great universal truth because he was a pop star with a fast growing popularity ?
What I'm saying is, with the exception of some ultraconservative families and the government of Saudi Arabia, there is simply no threat of death when people convert out. They'll be shunned somewhat socially, but that's the case in any religion -- imagine if a Mexican converted to Islam, the shunning he would receive from his Catholic neighbors. When Cassius ...[text shortened]... f death is not a factor. Although fear of social isolation is, that is not specific to Islam.
I don't think the speediness of the spread of a religious belief is that significant as the quality of teaching embodied within.
If we continue to converse about Islam compared to the Gospel maybe we can try to relate the exchanges to this topic heading.
Let's go back to the post about "true worship". Talk latter.
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by jaywillTo Islam the whole idea of a Trinity is blasphemy. There is God, and only God. He is everywhere, and He is everything. The world is revealed only through Him.
If I were you I would not boast that Islam is the fastest growing religion regardless. Is Michael Jackson represent some great universal truth because he was a pop star with a fast growing popularity ?
I don't think the speediness of the spread of a religious belief is that significant as the quality of teaching embodied within.
If we continu ...[text shortened]... o this topic heading.
Let's go back to the post about "true worship". Talk latter.
And when we say that Islam is the fastest-growing religion, all it means is that people are abandoning useless methods such as atheism and becoming disillusioned with Christianity's abstractness.
22 Feb 10
Originally posted by scherzoAs a Christian I could never ever surrender to any authority of the Quran. The Quran directly contradicts the Bible. It may include some portions which are in agreement with the Bible. But these are only accompanied to many other statements which totally contradict the Bible.
To Islam the whole idea of a Trinity is blasphemy. There is God, and only God. He is everywhere, and He is everything. The world is revealed only through Him.
And when we say that Islam is the fastest-growing religion, all it means is that people are abandoning useless methods such as atheism and becoming disillusioned with Christianity's abstractness.
So though I do read the Quran I can never acknowledge it as authoritative revelation.
And because of that one matter I could not accept your statments about the Triune God and blasphemy for they are based on your Quranic teaching.
But I do read the Quran. The Bible and especially the New Testament is the revelation that nourishes my faith and guides my experience.
And my God is the man Jesus Christ. I think that is the most directly I can put it.
I am at the library and am limited in time as to what I can submit today.
However, your Quran does make SOME statements about Jesus which it does not make about Mohammed -
Jesus is called word of God, either The word or A word. Either way it never says that about Mohamme.
Your Quran admits Jesus born of a virgin which is a unique quality not claimed for Mohammed.
Your Quran however also teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross. This I consider a lie. You were strong to use the world blasphemy with me. So do not be upset if I in turn say the Quran lies in saying Jesus did not die on the cross a redemptive death.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by jaywillAs a Christian I could never ever surrender to any authority of the Quran. The Quran directly contradicts the Bible. It may include some portions which are in agreement with the Bible. But these are only accompanied to many other statements which totally contradict the Bible.
As a Christian I could never ever surrender to any authority of the Quran. The Quran directly contradicts the Bible. It may include some portions which are in agreement with the Bible. But these are only accompanied to many other statements which totally contradict the Bible.
So though I do read the Quran I can never acknowledge it as authoritative revel ...[text shortened]... set if I in turn say the Quran lies in saying Jesus did not die on the cross a redemptive death.
Such as the Holy Qur'an has many pacifist ideas that are contradictory to the OT.
For the record, when the Holy Qur'an does not contradict an OT idea, Muslims do follow the OT.
So though I do read the Quran I can never acknowledge it as authoritative revelation.
That's good. It's always good to learn. How many passages of "kill the infidel" did you find?
For the record, I found one tenous reference to that.
And because of that one matter I could not accept your statments about the Triune God and blasphemy for they are based on your Quranic teaching.
You asked ....
However, your Quran does make SOME statements about Jesus which it does not make about Mohammed -
Obviously. Muslims regard Muhammed very differently than Christians regard Jesus, which is why the term "Mohammedan" is so offensive to us. We do not worship Muhammed like you worship Jesus. We honor him, certainly; it was him that God chose to deliver the Final Revelation to, but we only worship God.
Your Quran however also teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross. This I consider a lie. You were strong to use the world blasphemy with me. So do not be upset if I in turn say the Quran lies in saying Jesus did not die on the cross a redemptive death.
Can you give me a passage for this? I think he probably did die on the cross, but I'm not sure which part of the Holy Qur'an says he didn't.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by scherzo=====================================
[b]As a Christian I could never ever surrender to any authority of the Quran. The Quran directly contradicts the Bible. It may include some portions which are in agreement with the Bible. But these are only accompanied to many other statements which totally contradict the Bible.
Such as the Holy Qur'an has many pacifist ideas that are contradictory to ...[text shortened]... did die on the cross, but I'm not sure which part of the Holy Qur'an says he didn't.[/b]
Me:
And because of that one matter I could not accept your statments about the Triune God and blasphemy for they are based on your Quranic teaching.
You asked ....
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Asked what? The only sentence I wrote with a question mark after it concerned the fast growing popularity of Michael Jackson.
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Obviously. Muslims regard Muhammed very differently than Christians regard Jesus, which is why the term "Mohammedan" is so offensive to us. We do not worship Muhammed like you worship Jesus. We honor him, certainly; it was him that God chose to deliver the Final Revelation to, but we only worship God.
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Some Moslem scholars exalt the book of the Quran to the status that the Gospel of John uses to discribe the Logos. That is the Word that was God and became flesh.
While it may be true that you do not deify Mohammed there is in some Moslem scholars a deification of the book the Quran.
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Your Quran however also teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross. This I consider a lie. You were strong to use the world blasphemy with me. So do not be upset if I in turn say the Quran lies in saying Jesus did not die on the cross a redemptive death.
Can you give me a passage for this? I think he probably did die on the cross, but I'm not sure which part of the Holy Qur'an says he didn't
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4:157-159
Note the words "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God- But they killed him not, nor crucified him, But so it was made to appear to them ..."
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by jaywillAsked what? The only sentence I wrote with a question mark after it concerned the fast growing popularity of Michael Jackson.
[b]=====================================
Me:
And because of that one matter I could not accept your statments about the Triune God and blasphemy for they are based on your Quranic teaching.
You asked ....
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Asked what? The only sentence I wrote with a question mark after it concerned the fast growing p ...[text shortened]... od- But they killed him not, nor crucified him, But so it was made to appear to them ..."[/b]
OK, not quite asked. More implied:
"If we continue to converse about Islam compared to the Gospel maybe we can try to relate the exchanges to this topic heading.
Let's go back to the post about 'true worship'. Talk latter."
Some Moslem scholars exalt the book of the Quran to the status that the Gospel of John uses to discribe the Logos. That is the Word that was God and became flesh.
Yes ...
While it may be true that you do not deify Mohammed there is in some Moslem scholars a deification of the book the Quran.
See, I no longer believe you read the Holy Qur'an. I think you just said that so you'd seem more credible. If you actually did read it, you'd notice that what you said was irrelevant to the topic.
The Qur'an makes no mention of the Prophet Muhammed, at least not in the third person. It is not about the Prophet Muhammed like the New Testament is about Jesus. The Holy Qur'an is about God and God only.
4:157-159
Note the words "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God- But they killed him not, nor crucified him, But so it was made to appear to them ..."
Hm. Being a fairly liberal Muslim, I'll skim over that part or take it with a grain of salt ...
23 Feb 10
3 edits
Originally posted by scherzo=======================================
[b] Asked what? The only sentence I wrote with a question mark after it concerned the fast growing popularity of Michael Jackson.
OK, not quite asked. More implied:
"If we continue to converse about Islam compared to the Gospel maybe we can try to relate the exchanges to this topic heading.
Let's go back to the post about 'true worship'. Talk fairly liberal Muslim, I'll skim over that part or take it with a grain of salt ...[/b]
While it may be true that you do not deify Mohammed there is in some Moslem scholars a deification of the book the Quran.
See, I no longer believe you read the Holy Qur'an. I think you just said that so you'd seem more credible. If you actually did read it, you'd notice that what you said was irrelevant to the topic.
The Qur'an makes no mention of the Prophet Muhammed, at least not in the third person. It is not about the Prophet Muhammed like the New Testament is about Jesus. The Holy Qur'an is about God and God only.
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First of all I recognize that that there are all kinds of Moslem believers. You need not worry that I wouldn't recognize that.
Secondly, I did not say that the Quran mentioned Mohammed. You should know that there are quite a few other writings which enfluence many Moslem practices and beliefs. I refered to scholars didn't I ?
Thirdly, I have not finished or read the entire book. I don't mind if you point out my deficiency of knowledge of it. And you can believe whatever you wish. I read parts of the Quran as they interest me. No, I am not an avid reader every day by a long shot. It is a long term project for me.
I figure if I desire Moslems to know what is in my New Testament I should recprocate to know something of what is in their Quran.
I think you jumped the gun a little there.
23 Feb 10
Originally posted by jaywillSecondly, I did not say that the Quran mentioned Mohammed. You should know that there are quite a few other writings which enfluence many Moslem practices and beliefs. I refered to scholars didn't I ?
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While it may be true that you do not deify Mohammed there is in some Moslem scholars a deification of the book the Quran.
See, I no longer believe you read the Holy Qur'an. I think you just said that so you'd seem more credible. If you actually did read it, you'd notice that what you said was irrelevant to ...[text shortened]... ing of what is in their Quran.
I think you jumped the gun a little there.
But you mentioned it in conjuction with the NT in response to my post that said that we don't consider the Prophet Muhammed to be a demigod like you consider Jesus.
I figure if I desire Moslems to know what is in my New Testament I should recprocate to know something of what is in their Quran.
I have read the New Testament, having been raised a Christian.
24 Feb 10
Originally posted by scherzoDo you know God ?
[b] Secondly, I did not say that the Quran mentioned Mohammed. You should know that there are quite a few other writings which enfluence many Moslem practices and beliefs. I refered to scholars didn't I ?
But you mentioned it in conjuction with the NT in response to my post that said that we don't consider the Prophet Muhammed to be a demigod like ...[text shortened]... what is in their Quran. [/b]
I have read the New Testament, having been raised a Christian.[/b]
I met God. I have fellowship with God Himself.
I have communion with God.
Do you know the Father ?
25 Feb 10
Originally posted by scherzoI know that we both know many many doctrines. But the important issues is do we know God Himself.
You say Father as if there's a Son.
God was not real to me for a long time. Then through Jesus Christ I began to have fellowship with God.
I found that what separated me from having fellowship with God was my sins. But in Christ the obstacle was removed and God became very very real to me.
I found that it is easy to accumulate knowledge of teachings and doctrines - right ones or wrong ones. But what my innermost being thirsts for is to have communion with God Himself.
Every moment that I have fellowship in the presence of God I am aware that a great price was paid by Christ to secure this enjoyment for man. The true value of that price is unknown. No one can tell the worth of the blood of Jesus before God.
We do know that His redemptive death has richly secured the ability for the sinner to boldly draw near to God and commune with God - fellowship, mutual fellowship.
Concerning this fellowship with God at one place Jesus spoke this:
"Now on the last day; the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the SCripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:37-39)
Jesus was glorifed on the third day after His crucifixion when He was raised from the dead. In His form as life giving Spirit He came into my innermost being as rivers of living water. He brought His Father with Him and God abides in me today.
Here we see Jesus promise that He and His Father will come to the one who loves Him and will make an abode within them:
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
One day the Son of God, with the Father, AS the Holy Spirit, the life giving Spirit came to me and made an abode with me.
I know God. I have received a new spiritual life of my Divine Father.