It is Easy to Be Saved Forever

Originally posted by jaywill
I know that we both know many many doctrines. But the important issues is do we know God Himself.

God was not real to me for a long time. Then through Jesus Christ I began to have fellowship with God.

I found that what separated me from having fellowship with God was my sins. But in Christ the obstacle was removed and God became very very real to m ...[text shortened]... an abode with me.

I know God. I have received a new spiritual life of my Divine Father.

It seems that we must agree to disagree; even though we are both of the Book, the question of the Trinity is a fundamental difference between your faith and mine. One of the five pillars of Islam is to recite the Shahuda before every prayer "La ilaha ilallah wa Muhammed rasulullah" -- "there is no God but God and Muhammed is His Prophet." The idea of a Trinity is directly in conflict with this. Meanwhile, in part of Revelations, it is made very clear that all Prophets after Jesus are null.

Originally posted by scherzo
It seems that we must agree to disagree; even though we are both of the Book, the question of the Trinity is a fundamental difference between your faith and mine. One of the five pillars of Islam is to recite the Shahuda before every prayer "La ilaha ilallah wa Muhammed rasulullah" -- "there is no God but God and Muhammed is His Prophet." The idea of a Trini ...[text shortened]... while, in part of Revelations, it is made very clear that all Prophets after Jesus are null.

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Meanwhile, in part of Revelations, it is made very clear that all Prophets after Jesus are null.
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I am not sure exactly why you wrote this.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==============================
Meanwhile, in part of Revelations, it is made very clear that all Prophets after Jesus are null.
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I am not sure exactly why you wrote this.[/b]

To show that there is a part of Christianity fundamentally irreconcilable with Islam, and that it's pointless to debate it.

Originally posted by scherzo
To show that there is a part of Christianity fundamentally irreconcilable with Islam, and that it's pointless to debate it.

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To show that there is a part of Christianity fundamentally irreconcilable with Islam, and that it's pointless to debate it.
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I am not sure what part of Revelation you are refering to.

Strictly speaking a prophet is simply one who speaks forth for God. And the Bible doesn't say that there are no more prophets in that sense after Jesus.

For example, in the church meetings the Apostle Paul instructed the Corinthian Christians - "For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged." (1 Cor. 14:31)

To prophesy is an important New Testament function which the apostle tells the believers they should earnestly seek to do for the building up of the church:

"So then, my brothers, desire earnestly the prophesying, and do not forbid speakaing in tongues." (14:39)

Not all prophesying is predicting. And it is apparent that the word of God was completed with the 27 New Testament books. We do not expect any prophet to add another book to the Bible. And perhaps that is what you are refering to in (Revelation 22:18,19).

I understand Islam says Mohammed is a prophet in producing a authoritative written message from Allah. And they say he is the last prophet. The Bahais say "No, after Mohammed there was Bahuallah."

But anyway, we are both seeking God. That is for certain. And we both seek to love God and I think to know God. I asked you a question I don't think you answered. You got occupied with something I said which touched off a complaint about the Trinity.

But if we put aside that matter I would still ask you - do you know God ? You see it is one matter to know ABOUT God. It is another matter to know God.

God wants us to know God not simply know all about God. Now the knowing OF God admittedly must go deeper and deeper. We can never exhaust the depths and riches of God.

But Christ has brought me into a situation of communion with God Himself. I can say at one time I did not know God and at a certain point I began to know God.

I do not ask if you know the prpoer poster to worship, the proper diet, or what direction to pray, or how low to bow your head, or anything like this. I ask do you know God ?

Did you know that we can know God Himself ?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
To show that there is a part of Christianity fundamentally irreconcilable with Islam, and that it's pointless to debate it.
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I am not sure what part of Revelation you are refering to.

Strictly speaking a prophet is simply one who speaks forth for God. And the ...[text shortened]... hing like this. I ask do you know God ?

Did you know that we can know God Himself ?[/b]

I don't know if I know God. I figure I'll find out in due time.

Originally posted by scherzo
I don't know if I know God. I figure I'll find out in due time.

But if you confessed to the Lord Jesus that you are a sinner, and asked that His precious blood would cleanse you from all of your sins, the obstacle would be removed. Then the Holy Spirit would bear witness with your innermost being and you would realize God Himself rising up in your heart.

The insulation is caused by your sins which need cleansing away in Christ's redemption. The obstacle to communing with God is your sins. That has been taken care of if you come to Jesus and thank Him that His precious blood cleanses you from every sin.

You can then know that you know God. For the Holy Spirit will flow into your innermost being.

Originally posted by jaywill
But if you confessed to the Lord Jesus that you are a sinner, and asked that His precious blood would cleanse you from all of your sins, the obstacle would be removed. Then the Holy Spirit would bear witness with your innermost being and you would realize God Himself rising up in your heart.

The insulation is caused by your sins which need cleansing awa ...[text shortened]... You can then know that you know God. For the Holy Spirit will flow into your innermost being.

But if you confessed to the Lord Jesus that you are a sinner, and asked that His precious blood would cleanse you from all of your sins, the obstacle would be removed. Then the Holy Spirit would bear witness with your innermost being and you would realize God Himself rising up in your heart.

I'll do that when I see you praying in the direction of the Ka'aba 5 times daily, fasting during Ramadan, giving the Declaration of Faith, making the pilgrimage, and paying the zakat.

Originally posted by jaywill
One of the meanings of being "saved" in the Bible is receiving the gift of eternal redemption and eternal life. This thread is meant by me to focus on this aspect of the word "saved" and of this aspect of salvation as a gift received.

In this aspect of being saved it is a matter of receiving the One who has done the work, the finished work on behalf of onstrate that it is easy to be saved forever in this specific aspect of the word "saved".

Mat 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor [can] a bad tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 MANY will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Mat 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

Can I have some opinions from you Jay, and others on these scriptures as to once saved always saved. Especially pointing to verses 21 thru 23. These people thought or think they are saved. They undoubtedly call on the Lord by prophesying and doing miracles in His name.
And then verse 15 tells us to watch out for false prophets that come to you dressed in Jesus (sheeps) clothing but are not truly saved by Jesus. and then Jesus tells us how to know who they are and watch out for them..
Also verse 14 Jesus tells us it's difficult and hard to find the way to life and that few will find it.

Any thoughts?? Thanks in advance. 🙂

Originally posted by scherzo
[b]But if you confessed to the Lord Jesus that you are a sinner, and asked that His precious blood would cleanse you from all of your sins, the obstacle would be removed. Then the Holy Spirit would bear witness with your innermost being and you would realize God Himself rising up in your heart.

I'll do that when I see you praying in the direction of during Ramadan, giving the Declaration of Faith, making the pilgrimage, and paying the zakat.[/b]

i object to the practice, its wholly idolatrous. Moses, whom you people respect as a Prophet warned against setting up a stone as a show-piece and venerating it.

(Leviticus 26:1)“‘you must not make valueless gods for yourselves, and you must not set up a carved image or a sacred pillar for yourselves, and you must not put a stone as a showpiece in your land in order to bow down toward it; for I am Jehovah your God. . .

Originally posted by KingDavid403
[b]Mat 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and he way to life and that few will find it.

Any thoughts?? Thanks in advance. 🙂[/b]

I wish you luck with this, KindDavid. I have never been able to get a straight answer from the OSAS gang about this belief of theirs which conflict with so many of Christ's statements.

Anyway, I would like to point out that the greatest condemnation of the OSAS doctrine is actually contained in the passage you quoted -- Matt 7:21. Its probably the single most common doctrine of the entire Bible: doing the will of God. Salvation is for those who have done the will of God. Consequently it cannot be claimed or awarded prematurely.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I wish you luck with this, KindDavid. I have never been able to get a straight answer from the OSAS gang about this belief of theirs which conflict with so many of Christ's statements.

Anyway, I would like to point out that the greatest condemnation of the OSAS doctrine is actually contained in the passage you quoted -- Matt 7:21. Its probably the single ...[text shortened]... se who have done the will of God. Consequently it cannot be claimed or awarded prematurely.[/b]

Thanks for your good wishes Rajk. And your thoughts. 🙂 I do believe if you remain in Jesus you will be saved. And when you sin if you truly repent with your whole heart you can always return to Him assured of His grace.
But I also believe you can fall away and head on your own the wrong way.

And just because people talk the talk does not mean they walk the walk. A Easily understandable example for I would be the KKK. They preach and teach Jesus and the bible, but to them it's only for their supposed superior white race and no one else. And they hate Jews. And they still admit Jesus was a Jew. Go Figure. 🙄

But anyways I'm really wanting to hear from some others also on this subject as I might learn some new things. I have found out that sometimes I'm not always right. Believe it or not. 🙂

Originally posted by KingDavid403
.. I also believe you can fall away and head on your own the wrong way...

Exactly and Paul said something similar when he likened your life as a follower of Christ as a race and if you fail you can become a castway. Also before his death Paul said he fought the good fight and he finished his course. There is no immediate, automatic or irrevocable salvation. Salvation comes to those who demonstrated that they can do the works required by Christ :

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. ...1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

And yes .. Im pretty sure you will get some responses. 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
Exactly and Paul said something similar when he likened your life as a follower of Christ as a race and if you fail you can become a castway. Also before his death Paul said he fought the good fight and he finished his course. There is no immediate, automatic or irrevocable salvation. Salvation comes to those who demonstrated that they can do the works requi ...[text shortened]... lso that love his appearing. [/quote]
And yes .. Im pretty sure you will get some responses. 🙂

I agree. And there's many more scriptures I have questions with, such as this one,

Phl 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Originally posted by KingDavid403
I agree. And there's many more scriptures I have questions with, such as this one,

[b]Phl 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;[/b]

When reading the Bible you often have to pay attention to how the word salvation is being used and in what context.

Working out one's salvation in Philippians is cooperating with the operating Holy Spirit to transform the soul out of negative life styles into shining Christ likeness in personality.

Calling on the name of the Lord to be saved from hell forever meets my need not to go to the lake of fire.

But God has a need to conform me to the image of His Son (Rom.8:28,29). So I need a salvation from living in the old man. I need a salvation from my "murmering", a salvation from divisive "reasoning", my anxiety, a daily salvation from behaviors which keep me living like a fallen man.

The church life cannot be built up with the fallen man. So in Philippians Paul urges the believers to work our their own salvation from the fallen Adamic murmerings and reasonings by cooperating with the operating God within them, Who is working to conform them to the image of Christ.

Here is that passage:

"So then, my beloved ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; For it is God who operates in you both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.

Do all things without murmerings and reasonings that you may be blameless and guileless, children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverted generation, among who you shine as luminaries in the world, holding forth the word of life ..." (Se Phil. 2:12-16)

Salvation which we are told to work out here is not the salvation from the lake of fire. It is the salvation of being transformed by the Holy Spirit unto overcoming our murmering and reasoning which divide the body of Christ into argumentative factions. We need Christ's life to operate in us to fill us with His fine humanity.

Simarly in the same letter Paul says "For I know that this will turn out to salvation through your petition and the bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (1:19)

Paul is in prison chained and unable to do his gospel work among the churches. Instead of being depressed, disheartened, oppressed, discouraged and dejected, he expects a salvation is coming. This is a salvation from dark moods. This is a salvation from a discouraging human viewpoint to a rejoicing in God's sovereignty.

This shall turn out to salvation through the prayers of the church for Paul and the rich bountiful supply of the indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ. The Spirit of Christ is within him upholding him against all trials. The believers are without petitioning God for him. Paul expects that his circumstances will be used by God to further transform him, conform him, mold him, shape him into the image of Christ.

Such a change in his being is "salvation". He is not speaking of the salvation from eternal punishment. He is speaking of the salvation being delivered from living in the old man to living in the new man.

He continues - "According to my earnest expectation and hope that in nothing I will be put to shame, but with all boldness, as always, even now Christ will be magnified in my body whether through life or through death." (1:20)

Notice that Paul expects that in his body Jesus Christ would be made large to people's view. He would be magnified and manifested in Paul's personality. This is salvation to Paul.

Notice also that Paul urges the Philippians to work out thier OWN salvation. Thier circumstances may differ. But the priniciple is the same. God the Holy Spirit is also operating within them both the willing and the working to transform their souls.

They should not neglect their transformation. They should also allow the operating Spirit to dispense Christ's personality into their personality causing Christ to be magnified also within them.

Originally posted by KingDavid403
[b]Mat 7:12 Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide [is] the gate and broad [is] the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow [is] the gate and difficult [is] the way which leads to life, and he way to life and that few will find it.

Any thoughts?? Thanks in advance. 🙂

[/b] The book of Matthew has a particular characteristic. God seeks a kingdom. God seeks a realm in which to carry out His administration. God seeks a realm in which to have a government.

In Matthew man is to "repent for the kingdom". That means repent for God's government. It means repent for being for other things besides God. It means to repent for not living for God and unto God.

It is important to grasp the distinction between these two concepts:

1.) Repent so that you will not be punished in eternal perdition.

2.) Repent for the kingdom.

Once again:

1.) Repent so that you do not go to hell.

2.) Repent for not being for God's government

Some people cannot detect the difference in these two concepts. Man's basic problem is that he is not for God. Man is invariably for something other than God.

The Gospel of Matthew is a call to repent for not living absalutely for God's kingdom, God's administration, God's government. We are to repent for the kingdom.

Many times entering into life or into eternal life in Matthew is this entering into a life on the highest level of cooperation with God's government and administration.

As fallen sinners usually our initial thought is "I should repent so that I do not burn forever". And of course that is true.

But from the standpoint of God's governement we should repent for His administration. We should repent for not being for God.

Now if I am saved from the lake of fire yet I still quarrel with my wife, exchanging angry words, I may be saved from hell. But I STILL need to "repent for the kingdom". I need to repent from a daily living which is not under God's rule.

Can you see the difference here? The opening Gospel of the New Testament, the Gospel of Matthew, is a call for man to live daily and even moment by moment under the rule of God. It is a call to repent for the KINGDOM.

So the flavor of many passages has this goal in view. The way of living under the kingdom is contricted and strict and narrow. We will not enter into the reward of this kingdom unless our righteousness exceeds that of the scribe and Pharisees. It must be organic, genuine, from deep within, and a matter of a transformed life.

Matthew is NOT saying it is difficult to be saved from eternal damnation. Matthew is saying that once saved we need to be absolute to enter into the government of God, the administration of God and the reign of God in our daily lives in a practical moment by moment way.