14 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75As the Gospel of John points out the Word became flesh so he could die for our sins. It was through His human mother that he became the son of man and capable of sin and death like any other man. But His Father is God and therfore He is the Son of God and eternal in His Spirit. That is why Christian refer to Him as both man and God.
Are you sure Jesus could not have died before he came to earth? Lets look at a couple scriptures:
"The Gift of Immortality"
Jehovah God is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” He is immortal. (Psalm 90:2) We all know God/Jehovah has always existed and always will.
The first person to whom Jehovah gr ...[text shortened]... d immortality, why these scriptures and many more that speak of Jesus now gaining immortality?
At His resurrection His human body was changed so it could no longer die, as do other humans. He is referred to as the firstborn from the dead. It is Jesus in His humanity that gained immortality and He is able to give us this immortality too. This is why Paul says if Christ has not risen, our faith is in vain. We look forward to the resurrection of our body too.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by SuzianneWell said.
This is the same way Robbie starts his arguments, asking some simple question, drawing us in. If you have another shoe to drop, drop it already. Let's hear your entire argument. Why go through this involved process to draw out of us what you want us to say so you can then shoot it down? Leading the witness much? You're acting like a lawyer. Just spit it out already.
14 Aug 12
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75You guys have some strange beliefs and ideas on things. You over-complicate everything and apply temporal thinking when dealing with spiritual matters.
Are you sure Jesus could not have died before he came to earth? Lets look at a couple scriptures:
"The Gift of Immortality"
Jehovah God is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” He is immortal. (Psalm 90:2) We all know God/Jehovah has always existed and always will.
The first person to whom Jehovah gr ...[text shortened]... d immortality, why these scriptures and many more that speak of Jesus now gaining immortality?
God is eternal and therefore by definition immortal. In eternity, death does not exist as the concept we know here.
God wanted to redeem his people from death, by taking our place.
So he had to become mortal but without 'sin'.
Only one way to do that, become flesh.
The body of christ was created as temple for the ONE living God in which he could execute this plan.
The good news of "God in Christ reconcilling himself to the world" may be hard to believe, but it is certainly not complicated.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71Are you and a few others here just not capable of having a decent and possibly enlightning and educational discussion of the bible without these silly attacks? I'm really beginning to think that for some here it's not in your minds to do that!!!!
The 144K are 1st fruits and 1st meaning there will be more to follow very simple logic that a 4 year old could understand but not a brainwashed J-Dub
Manny
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by divegeesterWell if it takes being "over complicated" to eventually learn the truth, why is that a bad thing? Is your life and the life of others not worth taking the extra effort to make sure of the things you know and would be willing to adjust what you think is right?
You guys have some strange beliefs and ideas on things. You over-complicate everything and apply temporal thinking when dealing with spiritual matters.
God is eternal and therefore by definition immortal. In eternity, death does not exist as the concept we know here.
God wanted to redeem his people from death, by taking our place.
So he had to ...[text shortened]... oncilling himself to the world" may be hard to believe, but it is certainly not complicated.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsWell the Bible nowhere says his body is still alive. I've asked for that proof from the bible many times and you have yet to show that scripture.
As the Gospel of John points out the Word became flesh so he could die for our sins. It was through His human mother that he became the son of man and capable of sin and death like any other man. But His Father is God and therfore He is the Son of God and eternal in His Spirit. That is why Christian refer to Him as both man and God.
At His resurrectio ...[text shortened]... rist has not risen, our faith is in vain. We look forward to the resurrection of our body too.
And I've asked for any scripture that states that before Jesus came to earth he was immortal.
If your going to believe in a scriptural issue, you should be able to prove it by the Bible...........
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75Some people say that Jesus' resurrection was not physical, but a spirit form. Groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses hold to this. But, the Bible teaches that the resurrection of Jesus was physical, not simply spiritual. In John 2:19-21, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, 'It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?' But He was speaking of the temple of his body." Notice that Jesus was speaking of His body. The apostle John gives the commentary that Jesus was prophesying that His physical body would be raised from the dead. Is this what happened?
Well the Bible nowhere says his body is still alive. I've asked for that proof from the bible many times and you have yet to show that scripture.
And I've asked for any scripture that states that before Jesus came to earth he was immortal.
If your going to believe in a scriptural issue, you should be able to prove it by the Bible...........
Jesus, after his resurrection, appeared to Thomas. "Then He said to Thomas, 'Reach here your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing,'" (John 20:27). Notice that Jesus still retained the hole in His side where he was pierced during the crucifixion: "But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and immediately there came out blood and water" (John 19:34). This clearly shows that Jesus retained the wounds in His body. The only way this is possible is if He was raised from the dead physically.
But some people refer to 1 Cor. 15:44 that says, "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." They conclude that Jesus was raised in a spiritual form, not a physical one. But, the truth is that He was raised physically. His body was a glorified body. It was the same body, but it was slightly different. That is, His body was raised physically, but it had been glorified. It had been changed. If we look at the context of the verse we see that Paul is repeatedly stating that the thing that is sown, is also the thing that is raised. "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body," (1 Cor. 15:42-44).
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). If this is so, then how could physical body have been raised? The answer is simple. After His resurrection Jesus said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). You must note that Jesus did not say, "flesh and blood." He said, "flesh and bones." This is because Jesus' blood was shed on the cross. The life is in the blood and it is the blood that cleanses from sin: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul," (Lev. 17:11). See also, Gen. 9:4; Deut. 12:23; and John 6:53-54. Jesus was pointing out that He was different. He had a body, but not a body of flesh and blood. It was flesh and bones. I am of the opinion that Jesus' body had no functional blood in it. Remember, after the resurrection He still retained the wounds in His hands, feet, and side. But, His blood was the thing that cleanses us of our sins: "but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin," (1 John 1:7). His body was raised, but it had no blood flowing through its veins. It was a glorified, physical body.
This explains why Paul said in Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." And also, 1 Tim. 2:5 that says, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." In these two verses, written after Jesus' resurrection and ascension, Jesus is said to be in bodily form and also to be a man. How could he be in bodily form and be a man if He does not have a body of flesh and bones?
Therefore, Jesus rose from the dead in a physical body.
http://carm.org/questions/about-jesus/didnt-jesus-simply-rise-non-physical-spirit-form
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHinds"The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). If this is so, then how could physical body have been raised? The answer is simple. After His resurrection Jesus said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). You must note that Jesus did not say, "flesh and blood." He said, "flesh and bones." This is because Jesus' blood was shed on the cross."
Some people say that Jesus' resurrection was not physical, but a spirit form. Groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses hold to this. But, the Bible teaches that the resurrection of Jesus was physical, not simply spiritual. In John 2:19-21, Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, 'It took forty-six years t ...[text shortened]... s/about-jesus/didnt-jesus-simply-rise-non-physical-spirit-form
Ok, let me see what your'e saying, I think.
So Jesus's blood was shed on the cross so he no longer had that in his body since he didn't mention that. So after he was resurrected he still had flesh and bone but NO blood?
So now Jesus with his flesh and bone was resurrected to heaven but without his blood. Correct?
But then the scripture you just quoted said no "flesh and blood" can go to heaven. But yet you also just said his "flesh and bone" went there.
So if you accept that his blood cannot go to heaven then you'd have to accept that his flesh couldn't either. So going with that you'd have to say only his bones went if we go with your line of reasoning.
Makes sence to me?......Not at all.
The point here is the bible clearly says that NO BLOOD AND FLESH can enter into heaven. First of all it just ain't possible. In case you haven't noticed all the men that go up into space have to wear what's called space suits. They have to wear those in order to live in that enviroment.
The Bible also clearly says that the "earth belongs to man" and the basic and formost reason is we can't live in space.
So when Jesus died he was resurrected as a spirit that was able to materialize into a fleshly form just as many other spirit beings did in the past when coming down to earth to communicate with man.
Also if Jesus had been resurrected as a human as he was before, that would not make sense and he could have been killed again if the people that had killed him once would no doubt do it again.
And one other point is everytime his followers saw him he appeared as a different person. They never recognized him from one time to the other. So that in itself would show he was materializing as a different being each time and not a human as we are with flesh and blood and bones that we cannot change into a different person..
14 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Err, that's my exact point in reverse. It's not complicated at all.
Well if it takes being "over complicated" to eventually learn the truth, why is that a bad thing? Is your life and the life of others not worth taking the extra effort to make sure of the things you know and would be willing to adjust what you think is right?
It's big religious organisations likes yours for example that make the Gospel complicated; if your organisation didn't make it complicated, the JW laity wouldn't see the value in subscribing in order to gain insight to uncomplicate it from your leadership.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by divegeesterWell from our viewpoint it's not complicted either. So I guess were even huh?
Err, that's my exact point in reverse. It's not complicated at all.
It's big religious organisations likes yours for example that make the Gospel complicated; if your organisation didn't make it complicated, the JW laity wouldn't see the value in subscribing in order to gain insight to uncomplicate it from your leadership.
The Bible says God is 1 God. No mystery there at all...
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75You must understand logic here.
"The Bible says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). If this is so, then how could physical body have been raised? The answer is simple. After His resurrection Jesus said, "Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). You must note that Jesus did not say, "flesh and blood. ...[text shortened]... esh and blood and bones that we cannot change into a different person..
Let X = Flesh
Let Y = Blood
Let Z = Bones
X and Y is not the same as X or Y.
The Hoy Bible says X and Y.
You are saying X or Y.
So X and Y is not the same as X and Z.
It is the combination of X and Y that is prohibited.
So the combination of X and Z would not be prohibited.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsLol. Ok I see it clearly now.
You must understand logic here.
Let X = Flesh
Let Y = Blood
Let Z = Bones
X and Y is not the same as X or Y.
The Hoy Bible says X and Y.
You are saying X or Y.
So X and Y is not the same as X and Z.
It is the combination of X and Y that is prohibited.
So the combination of X and Z would not be prohibited.
But seriously my friend. If you were to teach that to anyone that was wanting to learn the Bible, you know that makes no sense on any level. I hope you really don't think that does, do you?....
15 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75If a person understands the AND gate used to implement boolean logic in computers, it should be easy to understand.
Lol. Ok I see it clearly now.
But seriously my friend. If you were to teach that to anyone that was wanting to learn the Bible, you know that makes no sense on any level. I hope you really don't think that does, do you?....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AND_gate
http://library.thinkquest.org/19488/boolean.html