22 Aug 12
Originally posted by divegeesterSorry to confuse you.....
Manny was very clear and very accurate describing what the Bible/Jesus states about being "born again".
The confusion you bring to the gospel is why you and robbie are always surrounded by irritated enquirers trying to get to the bottom of your convoluted erroneous doctrinal position.
22 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75The little flock is described as being from the tribes of Israel. Yes, I agree that you are probably not one of them. But the large crowd of believing souls that no man can number that are standing in Heaven are from all the nations and tribes. There is no clear indication that all believers can not be born again that I can recall.
Yes one has to be born again. No contest there. But being born again or to be born into a new type of life, a spiritual one from a fleshly life is not for all. This is where the "little flock/144,000" comes in. They are the chosen ones Jesus spoke of continually. He also spoke of the "great crowd" and these are not the ones to be born again into a new sp ...[text shortened]... is still a human and alive in this planet. It only happens at ones death. Make sence?
22 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsYes they were originally supposed to come from those tribes as that was God's chosen people. No argument there.
The little flock is described as being from the tribes of Israel. Yes, I agree that you are probably not one of them. But the large crowd of believing souls that no man can number that are standing in Heaven are from all the nations and tribes. There is no clear indication that all believers can not be born again that I can recall.
But we all know that as a whole the Jews did not accept Jesus and were in fact the ones that pushed the Romans to kill him. Do we agree on that?
22 Aug 12
3 edits
Originally posted by galveston75It is clear that Jesus was rejected by His own people. But while being crucified on the cross,Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." This sounds as though He did not reject them. And John wrote Revelation after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Paul writes the following:
Yes they were originally supposed to come from those tribes as that was God's chosen people. No argument there.
But we all know that as a whole the Jews did not accept Jesus and were in fact the ones that pushed the Romans to kill him. Do we agree on that?
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(Romans 11:1-32 KJV)
23 Aug 12
So you are saying that the 144,000 are only natural Jews? Not according to these scriptures:
Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . . . Zebulun . . . Joseph . . . Benjamin.”
These cannot be the tribes of natural Israel because there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes.
Rom. 2:28, 29: “He is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code.”
Gal. 3:26-29: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”
So according to your bible at these scriptures it is open to all no matter what nationality or country they are from. Do you disagree?
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75I do not disagree with Paul for I also quoted from what he wrote in Romans 11.
So you are saying that the 144,000 are only natural Jews? Not according to these scriptures:
Rev. 7:4-8: “I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel: . . . Judah . . . Reuben . . . Gad . . . Asher . . . Naphtali . . . Manasseh . . . Simeon . . . Levi . . . Issachar . ...[text shortened]... riptures it is open to all no matter what nationality or country they are from. Do you disagree?
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsSo even though they still reject his son Jesus to this day, you are sure he still favors them over all in the world that do accept his son? If so why would he grant these highly favored positions as kings and judges along side his son whom they not only rejected but even killed?
I do not disagree with Paul for I also quoted from what he wrote in Romans 11.
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew."
And according to the scripture you just did read it says ones from "all peoples" would be granted this.
So maybe the scripture you quoted your not understanding it. Remember the Bible does not contradict itself, right?
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Yes one has to be born again. No contest there. But being born again or to be born into a new type of life, a spiritual one from a fleshly life is not for all. This is where the "little flock/144,000" comes in. They are the chosen ones Jesus spoke of continually. He also spoke of the "great crowd" and these are not the ones to be born again into a new sp ...[text shortened]... is still a human and alive in this planet. It only happens at ones death. Make sence?
You confuse the bible no doubt. I challenge you to read your bible minus all of your
extra garbage that the watch tower puts on you. Look at it with a fresh pair of eyes. Also ask God himself to open the words to you. He will if you ask. What I'm telling you is not evil in anyway. I know you love the bible and God but it's twisted. The 144K sure they do go to be with Christ but the great crowd will also be with God.
Manny
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75I did not see any contradiction in what the Bible says. It seems to me that you are the one contradicting it.
So even though they still reject his son Jesus to this day, you are sure he still favors them over all in the world that do accept his son? If so why would he grant these highly favored positions as kings and judges along side his son whom they not only rejected but even killed?
And according to the scripture you just did read it says ones from "all pe ...[text shortened]... re you quoted your not understanding it. Remember the Bible does not contradict itself, right?
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
You confuse the bible no doubt. I challenge you to read your bible minus all of your
extra garbage that the watch tower puts on you. Look at it with a fresh pair of eyes. Also ask God himself to open the words to you. He will if you ask. What I'm telling you i ...[text shortened]... he 144K sure they do go to be with Christ but the great crowd will also be with God.
Manny
So what point are you trying to make here?
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75That you said you were not "A Born again" when Christ said We all must be born again to see the kingdom of God. His words not mine. Here's the kicker Christ does all the work as far as "the new birth is concerned" Flesh does not reveal the spirit But God reveals the spirit to us. The Spirit of God which is indeed God himself.
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
So what point are you trying to make here?
Manny
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75I am beginning to think you just don't want to understand and would rather take me in circles again. You do not have the right mindset to resolve this matter at the present time.
So are you saying that only the Jews and ones of these tribes are chosen or ones out of the whole earth? I don't understand your comment?
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71He was talking to the first ones of the "little flock" that he hand picked. Being born again only applies to those who are chosen to be a part of this group. None of the "great crowd" are born again into a spirit being. If we die we are simple resurrected back on the earth to be judged by Jesus and those 144,000 spirit beings.
That you said you were not "A Born again" when Christ said We all must be born again to see the kingdom of God. His words not mine. Here's the kicker Christ does all the work as far as "the new birth is concerned" Flesh does not reveal the spirit But God reveals the spirit to us. The Spirit of God which is indeed God himself.
Manny
23 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsAnd I never will have that mind set. It makes no sence and is not in anyway supported by the Bible.
I am beginning to think you just don't want to understand and would rather take me in circles again. You do not have the right mindset to resolve this matter at the present time.
But I understand more then you think......