14 Aug 12
Originally posted by SuzianneThe questions I ask is not to trip or bait anyone. It is to simply get ones to think about the subject at hand with perhaps a angle they have not thought about.
This is the same way Robbie starts his arguments, asking some simple question, drawing us in. If you have another shoe to drop, drop it already. Let's hear your entire argument. Why go through this involved process to draw out of us what you want us to say so you can then shoot it down? Leading the witness much? You're acting like a lawyer. Just spit it out already.
In fact if you look at Jesus and the way he taught, he often started with questions.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by RJHindsAre you sure Jesus could not have died before he came to earth? Lets look at a couple scriptures:
The Word equals God and God is eternal. (See John 1:1)
"The Gift of Immortality"
Jehovah God is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” He is immortal. (Psalm 90:2) We all know God/Jehovah has always existed and always will.
The first person to whom Jehovah granted the gift of immortality was Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul explains: “Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.” (Romans 6:9) Indeed, contrasting the resurrected Jesus with earthly rulers, Paul describes him as the only one among them having immortality. Jesus will remain “alive forever.” His life is “indestructible.”—Hebrews 7:15-17, 23-25; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16.
W 10/6/01
So if Jesus already had immortality, why these scriptures and many more that speak of Jesus now gaining immortality?
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75Because He lost it when He became human, and regained it once He was risen.
Are you sure Jesus could not have died before he came to earth? Lets look at a couple scriptures:
"The Gift of Immortality"
Jehovah God is “from time indefinite to time indefinite.” He is immortal. (Psalm 90:2) We all know God/Jehovah has always existed and always will.
The first person to whom Jehovah gr ...[text shortened]... d immortality, why these scriptures and many more that speak of Jesus now gaining immortality?
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75Skillful use of questions.
The questions I ask is not to trip or bait anyone. It is to simply get ones to think about the subject at hand with perhaps a angle they have not thought about.
In fact if you look at Jesus and the way he taught, he often started with questions.
"Jesus used questions to get his listeners to arrive at their own conclusions, examine their motives, or make decisions. (Matthew 12:24-30; 17:24-27; 22:41-46) When the religious leaders questioned whether he had God-given authority, Jesus replied: “Was the baptism by John from heaven or from men?” Stunned by the question, they reasoned among themselves: “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why, then, did you not believe him?’ If, though, we say, ‘From men,’ we have the crowd to fear, for they all hold John as a prophet.” Finally, they answered: “We do not know.” (Mark 11:27-33; Matthew 21:23-27) With a simple question, Jesus left them speechless and revealed the treachery in their hearts.
Jesus sometimes combined methods by weaving thought-provoking questions into his illustrations. When a Jewish lawyer asked Jesus what was required to gain everlasting life, Jesus referred him to the Mosaic Law, which commands love of God and neighbor. Wanting to prove himself righteous, the man asked: “Who really is my neighbor?” Jesus answered by telling a story. A certain Jewish man was traveling alone when he was assaulted by robbers, who left him half dead. Along came two Jews, first a priest and then a Levite. Both ignored him. But then a certain Samaritan came upon the scene. Moved with pity, he gently dressed the victim’s wounds and lovingly carried the man to the safety of an inn where he could recover. Concluding the story, Jesus asked his inquirer: “Who of these three seems to you to have made himself neighbor to the man that fell among the robbers?” The man was compelled to answer: “The one that acted mercifully toward him.”—Luke 10:25-37.
CL book, pages 215 & 216
14 Aug 12
3 edits
Originally posted by galveston75
Yes I see your answer and knew that was your reply. But it's a simple question which you only partually answerd.
Could Jesus have died at anytime before he came to earth as a man?
Could Jesus have died at anytime before he came to earth as a man?
I said that I do not need to entertain endless hypotheticals.
I have to deal in faith with what WAS and what IS. That is all.
But God has apparently passed through a kind of process in order to dispense Himself into man. The Word became flesh - that is kind of a process.
The last Adam became a life giving Spirit - that too is a kind of process.
The goal was that this Triune God could consummate Himself into a form in which He could be dispensed into man to indwell the redeemed man.
This is that God and man might be united. What a wonderful salvation.
What a wonderful eternal purpose of God.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by SuzianneBut if one has immortality it means he can not die. So if it were taken from him he was never really immortal. The true meaning of immortality does not leave it with a switch that one can turn on and off.
Because He lost it when He became human, and regained it once He was risen.
God cannot die as the Bible shows, so if Jesus is God then he did die? Does that really seem right with the scriptures definitions of God and his immortality?
If one really searches the scriptures I think one would never find anywhere before these scriptures that Jesus had immortality, nothing like that was ever mentioned anywhere in the Old Testiment unless one confuses Jesus with Jehovah.
But now it is mentioned that he/Jesus is immortal.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by jaywillNo scriptures to support this idea?Could Jesus have died at anytime before he came to earth as a man?
I said that I do not need to entertain endless hypotheticals.
I have to deal in faith with what WAS and what IS. That is all.
But God has apparently passed through a kind of process in order to dispense Himself into man. The Word became flesh - that is kind of a ...[text shortened]... and man might be united. What a wonderful salvation.
What a wonderful eternal purpose of God.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by SuzianneIf an immortal being can lose their immortality then surely they were never
Because He lost it when He became human, and regained it once He was risen.
immortal. If your explanation is correct (Jesus was once immortal, then mortal,
then immortal again) - then he could become mortal again? so he could die?
I could claim that I am immortal - only losing my immortality a moment before I die!
14 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75
So again, before Jesus was a man, did he have a begining? And if he did have an existance before he became a man, could he have died at any time in that existance?
So again, before Jesus was a man, did he have a begining? And if he did have an existance before he became a man, could he have died at any time in that existance?
Only after His incarnation could He and did He suffer death - for our redemption.
Does this answer your question ? We see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death - so says Psalm 8 and Hebrews 2.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75Where is Jesus Christ Michael the arch angel ?
No scriptures to support this idea?
Where is it that Michael the arch angel died on the cross for our sins ?
Where is it that Michael the arch angel lives in me ?
It is nowhere. You have no support for that heresy in the whole Bible.
We've been through this before.
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIn Revelation 5 then who our these elders mentioned ? If indeed no man has made it into Heaven?
(Revelation 14:1) . . .And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion,
and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his
Father written on their foreheads. . .
No one has gone to heaven prior to Christ
(John 3:13) . . .Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended
from heaven, the Son of man.
Angels Exalt the Lamb
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“ Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “ Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
I do enjoy the last verse because the elders are worshiping the Lamb and well we know who the Lamb is 🙂
Manny
14 Aug 12
And who are these souls ?
In Revelation 6:9 ? There surely not angels
The Fifth Seal—Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “ How long, O [k] Lord, holy and true, [l]will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed
Manny
14 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71
In Revelation 5 then who our these elders mentioned ? If indeed no man has made it into Heaven?
Angels Exalt the Lamb
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“ Worthy is ...[text shortened]... st verse because the elders are worshiping the Lamb and well we know who the Lamb is 🙂
Manny
In Revelation 5 then who our these elders mentioned ? If indeed no man has made it into Heaven?
Please ask me this question.
These are not human elders. These are the elders of the universe - the most ancient and elder of all of God's angelic beings.
The evidence for this I think, is strong.