25 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75So you believe the 144.000 from the tribes of Israel will be ruling here on earth?
That's true. Also they will be doing much more:
Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)
1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”
Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kin ...[text shortened]... ify, but the humans that do still follow Jesus and his commands are indeed the "Great Crowd".
25 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsNo. They will be in heaven with Jesus working with Jesus with these duties. Remember Jesus will be sitting along side his Father Jehovah.
So you believe the 144.000 from the tribes of Israel will be ruling here on earth?
But again this is symbolic of the positions of authority they have. This is described this way in Revelation so we get the structure of the Kingdom.
Again Almighty God/Jehovah is Jesus's Father just as the Bible says, so this is why Jesus is sitting in a subordinate position to him and then the joint kings/144,000 or standing beside the throne of Jesus.
Also this group of people, the 144,000 are said to be "bought from the earth" which would clearly indicate they were once on the earth but now have been removed from the earth and in another location.
If they we to be staying here on the planet, this would have been written differently and stated that.
25 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75G-Man a thing I (we) should consider is that the 144k can indeed be of Israel even if there is a new tribe introduced. I know the tribe of Dan is omitted but this does not negate the fact that God could introduce this new tribe. Also I do understand the fact that there is what is called the new Jew or Israel which God has created. I believe the scriptures teach both that God has created a new Israel but that He has not forsaken His covenants he made in the old testament either. I know the 144k are called first fruits and maybe we should look at the principle of "The first fruits" in the old testament. I know the ideas set forth are shadows and types for a principle God wanted to teach us now.
No. They will be in heaven with Jesus working with Jesus with these duties. Remember Jesus will be sitting along side his Father Jehovah.
But again this is symbolic of the positions of authority they have. This is described this way in Revelation so we get the structure of the Kingdom.
Again Almighty God/Jehovah is Jesus's Father just as the Bible sa ...[text shortened]... e to be staying here on the planet, this would have been written differently and stated that.
Manny
25 Aug 12
I actually do believe in this Earth Restored but we differ in one regard. God will also be in this new creation and this is clearly stated in Rev 21. I think location is a mute point. Where God is will be heaven and His Kingdom. You limit the power of God and you think in terms of physics like how could the new Jerusalem fit on the earth? or above it? well real answer is who knows except it's in a new creation and God can do anything.
Manny
25 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71I explained about the difference in the tribes on some other thread about a week ago. It had to do with the blessing given to the tribes by Jacob, especially concerning Dan and to Joseph's sons.
G-Man a thing I (we) should consider is that the 144k can indeed be of Israel even if there is a new tribe introduced. I know the tribe of Dan is omitted but this does not negate the fact that God could introduce this new tribe. Also I do understand the fact that there is what is called the new Jew or Israel which God has created. I believe the scriptures ...[text shortened]... e ideas set forth are shadows and types for a principle God wanted to teach us now.
Manny
25 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75If your god is infinite why would it limit itself to having only 144,000 sycophants?
No. They will be in heaven with Jesus working with Jesus with these duties. Remember Jesus will be sitting along side his Father Jehovah.
But again this is symbolic of the positions of authority they have. This is described this way in Revelation so we get the structure of the Kingdom.
Again Almighty God/Jehovah is Jesus's Father just as the Bible sa ...[text shortened]... e to be staying here on the planet, this would have been written differently and stated that.
26 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75Perhaps the 144,000 is also a symbolic number.
No. They will be in heaven with Jesus working with Jesus with these duties. Remember Jesus will be sitting along side his Father Jehovah.
But again this is symbolic of the positions of authority they have. This is described this way in Revelation so we get the structure of the Kingdom.
Again Almighty God/Jehovah is Jesus's Father just as the Bible sa ...[text shortened]... e to be staying here on the planet, this would have been written differently and stated that.
26 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71But yet you believe this is all on earth, Right? Don't you believe the Kingdom is here on the planet earth or am I wrong?
The one question you have not clearly answered is where the great multitude is?
They are pictured before the lamb and the father's throne. The vision is in heaven.
Manny
26 Aug 12
Originally posted by sonhouseWell in reality he needs no one. But he's granted his son the opportunity to do this for him as a reward for what he did for humans and for his Father. And as a farther reward for some humans going beyond what is faithful even to the death as Jesus did, he's rewarding a selct number to come to heaven, and opprtunity that has never been grated to any other humans ever before this was explained by Jesus or according to the Bible and all we know now, it will never happen again..
If your god is infinite why would it limit itself to having only 144,000 sycophants?
26 Aug 12
Originally posted by menace71I don't limit Jehovah on any level...ever. But the Bible has given us specific numbers on some things. The number given on the size of that city would never with any streatch of the imagination be real and on this planet.
I actually do believe in this Earth Restored but we differ in one regard. God will also be in this new creation and this is clearly stated in Rev 21. I think location is a mute point. Where God is will be heaven and His Kingdom. You limit the power of God and you think in terms of physics like how could the new Jerusalem fit on the earth? or above it? well real answer is who knows except it's in a new creation and God can do anything.
Manny
I don't have to prove to you that it will not fit, you have to prove to me it will.
26 Aug 12
Originally posted by galveston75The bible says pi is 3. Two different times it says this and you give that book any sort of credibility with numbers? What does that say about you?
I don't limit Jehovah on any level...ever. But the Bible has given us specific numbers on some things. The number given on the size of that city would never with any streatch of the imagination be real and on this planet.
I don't have to prove to you that it will not fit, you have to prove to me it will.
26 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71I believe I did. I said they are here on the earth.
The one question you have not clearly answered is where the great multitude is?
They are pictured before the lamb and the father's throne. The vision is in heaven.
Manny
Again here is some insight to that position Revelations is describing:
In Heaven or on Earth?
How do we know that “standing before the throne” does not mean that the great crowd is in heaven? There is much clear evidence on this point. For example, the Greek word here translated “before” (e·nopi·on) literally means “in [the] sight [of]” and is used several times of humans on earth who are “before” or “in the sight of” Jehovah. (1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:14; Romans 14:22; Galatians 1:20) On one occasion when the Israelites were in the wilderness, Moses said to Aaron: “Say to the entire assembly of the sons of Israel, ‘Come near before Jehovah, because he has heard your murmurings.’” (Exodus 16:9) The Israelites did not have to be transported to heaven in order to stand before Jehovah on that occasion. (Compare Leviticus 24:8.) Rather, right there in the wilderness they stood in Jehovah’s view, and his attention was on them.
Additionally, we read: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory . . . all the nations will be gathered before him.” The whole human race will not be in heaven when this prophecy is fulfilled. Certainly, those who “depart into everlasting cutting-off” will not be in heaven. (Matthew 25:31-33, 41, 46) Instead, mankind stands on earth in Jesus’ view, and he turns his attention to judging them. Similarly, the great crowd is “before the throne and before the Lamb” in that it stands in the view of Jehovah and his King, Christ Jesus, from whom it receives a favorable judgment.
This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb.
With regard to that question, in the next chapter, the apostle John describes those making up the great crowd, who come out of the great tribulation, as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9, 14, 15) Their standing before the throne of God shows that they recognize that throne and fully submit to Jehovah’s sovereignty. They therefore stand approved.
If they were not approved, they would not be standing at all. They would have perished at Armegeddon.
For a time Jehovah’s servants believed that the great multitude (or, great crowd) of Revelation 7:9, 10 was different from the other sheep of John 10:16 and the sheep of Matthew 25:33. Because the Bible says that they are “standing before the throne,” it was thought that they would be in heaven, not on thrones, ruling as joint heirs with Christ, but in a secondary place in front of the throne. They were viewed as less faithful Christians, ones who did not show a spirit of true self-sacrifice. In 1935 that view was corrected. An examination of Revelation 7:9 in the light of texts such as Matthew 25:31, 32 made it clear that people here on earth could be “before the throne.” Also it was pointed out that God does not have two standards of faithfulness. All who would have his approval must maintain integrity to him.—Matthew 22:37, 38; Luke 16:10.