John 8:58

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
ok you cannot tell us anything about the text and why its translated in the way that it is, thanks, have a good evening.

Not true again, everyone who looks at it says the same thing, you however
disagree and you I guess are going to refuse on telling everyone where you
acquired your skills so that we should take you translation more seriously
than centuries of translations that disagree with JUST YOU!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Not true again, everyone who looks at it says the same thing, you however
disagree and you I guess are going to refuse on telling everyone where you
acquired your skills so that we should take you translation more seriously
than centuries of translations that disagree with JUST YOU!
Kelly

you have told us nothing, absolutely nothing about why the verse is translated the way it is, all you have said is that it is translated in a certain way, not why. Do you understand that when you ask a question with why, that it demands a reason, the only reason that you have proffered is because everyone does it in a certain way therefore it must be true, a logical fallacy! Please educate yourself,

an argumentum ad populum Latin for "appeal to the people" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you have told us nothing, absolutely nothing about why the verse is translated the way it is, all you have said is that it is translated in a certain way, not why. Do you understand that when you ask a question with why, that it demands a reason, the only reason that you have proffered is because everyone does it in a certain way therefore it must b ...[text shortened]... t is: "If many believe so, it is so."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

You asked for my reasons I gave them, since I do not speak Greek I have
to rely on others.

So right now I'm left with trusting you who do not seem to want to tell me
where you acquired your knowledge and insult me for asking, to centuries
of people who all translated it in a way just you it seems disagrees with.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You asked for my reasons I gave them, since I do not speak Greek I have
to rely on others.

So right now I'm left with trusting you who do not seem to want to tell me
where you acquired your knowledge and insult me for asking, to centuries
of people who all translated it in a way just you it seems disagrees with.
Kelly

no you provided a logical fallacy, as yet you have provided no reasons.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no you provided a logical fallacy, as yet you have provided no reasons.

My reason is I do not trust you over centuries of others who translate
scripture. Others give their credentials, others as far as I know do not
belittle those that are simply asking for any reason what so ever to trust
them. I searched the web searching for someone else to support your
view, but in my search I didn't come up with any. I asked you for your
sources and all I got was you telling me you came up with it, stop trying
to make you the topic.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
As I i said i do not think anyone mentions the watchtower publishers as much as you. In fact i think you are obsessed, which is kinda creepy.

Analysing the translation of John 8:58 by the Watchtower Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses, is the purpose of this post.

A literal translation of the words of Jesus from the Greek (amen amen lego humin prin Abraam genesthai ego eimi) would be "Amen, amen, I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I am."

Both the text and a literal rendering can be found in the JW's own Kingdom Interlinear Translation where "ego eimi' is translated "I am." But to make John 8:58 to appear to agree with their doctrine the Watchtower Society's NWT renders the words of Jesus as "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been." This eliminates the allusion to Exodus 3:14 that identifies God's name as "I AM" and conveys the idea of eternal self-existence. Therefore, the Jehovah's Witnesses can now claim this simply means Jesus existed prior to Abraham without being eternally preexistent. I ask, "I have been what? Maybe it is, "I have been existing."

No biblical scholar that I am aware of has ever rendered "eimi" here in the past tense and argued that the verse did not mean eternal preexistence. Such an interpretation by the Watchtower Society is unorthodox and heretical.

The grammatical argument that appeared as a footnote to John 8:58 in the 1950 NWT was as follows:

I have been = (ego eimi) after the aorist infinitive clause "prin Abraam genesthai" and hence properly rendered in the perfect indefinite tense.

After this, critics argued that the term "perfect indefinite" was an invention of the "Watchtower Society" and not documented from standard grammars. Any beginner's Greek grammar will show that "eimi" is clearly a present active indicative form. The Watchtower Society made no defense, but simply ignored the criticism. But a later edition of the NWT changed the words in the footnote from "perfect indefinite tense" to "perfect tense indicative." In 1984, a reference edition of the NWT appeared with an appendix that defended their translation by appealing to the Greek idiom of the present to past action still in progress, but made no reference to 1950 NWT footnote's use of the term "perfect indefinite tense." However, in Greek, the term "indicatve" describes the mood and not the tense of the verb, indicating it is a statement rather than a question, command, or wish.

The Watchtower Society's 1984 large-print New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures with references has a footnote on Exodus 3:14, admitting that the Hebrew that is translated into English as "I AM" would be rendered in Greek as "Ego eimi" - I am. The Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) also has "ego eimi" in Exodus 3:14, so Trinitarians believe Jesus was not referring to his age but to his eternal self-existence as the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob by referring to Himself with "ego eimi" - I AM.

Jesus uses the words "ego eimi" in John 4:26; 6:35,48,51; 8:12,24,28; 10:7,11,14; 11:25; 14:6; 15:1,5; and 18:5,6,8 and the NWT correctly translate these as "I am" so it is reasonable to translate John 8:58 in the same way unless there is some other agenda. By the way, the addition of the word "He" in many English translations in John 8:24 and elsewhere where it is translated "I am He" is not actually in the Greek text.

The Instructor

Originally posted by KellyJay
My reason is I do not trust you over centuries of others who translate
scripture. Others give their credentials, others as far as I know do not
belittle those that are simply asking for any reason what so ever to trust
them. I searched the web searching for someone else to support your
view, but in my search I didn't come up with any. I asked you for yo ...[text shortened]... nd all I got was you telling me you came up with it, stop trying
to make you the topic.
Kelly

as you said, who cares what you think, we are interested in facts not opinions.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
as you said, who cares what you think, we are interested in facts not opinions.

The facts? See the post immediately above your last.

Originally posted by sonship
The facts? See the post immediately above your last.

i have given adequate reasoning and not a single person has addressed any of those points that i made, i do not read Hinds posts, he is a cheat, a liar and cannot be trusted. The facts are that the translations that you cited are grammatically incorrect, why, because they display a religious bias favouring the Greek idiom even though its an English translation. I have proven the matter with reference to the Greek text and the way that your translators translate the exact same clause elsewhere but you did not have either the honesty nor the integrity to admit the fact, despite the evidence. Its a complete waste of my time and effort, you are not interested in biblical facts, all you are interested in is perpetuating your Greek mythology.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i have given adequate reasoning and not a single person has addressed any of those points that i made, i do not read Hinds posts, he is a cheat, a liar and cannot be trusted. The facts are that the translations that you cited are grammatically incorrect, why, because they display a religious bias fvouring the Greek idiom even though its an English t ...[text shortened]... ot interested in biblical facts, all you are interested in is perpetuating your Greek mythology.

You really did not want the facts. You only wanted to promote the JW dogma with propaganda.

The instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
You really did not want the facts. You only wanted to promote the JW dogma with propaganda.

The instructor

not a single iota of my text was from a watchtower article making you once more a liar and a cheat.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not a single iota of my text was from a watchtower article making you once more a liar and a cheat.

Where do I mention a watchtower article?

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Where do I mention a watchtower article?

The Instructor

you cannot stop talking about the watchtower Bible and tract society in one way or another.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you cannot stop talking about the watchtower Bible and tract society in one way or another.

Well, they are the ones that rule over the JWs and are responsible for the NWT and JW doctrines. So they will necessarily come up when discussing the translations according to the NWT, which you use as your authority for the correct translation of John 1:1 and John 8:58 as well as any other controversial rendering of Biblical texts by you JWs.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, they are the ones that rule over the JWs and are responsible for the NWT and JW doctrines. So they will necessarily come up when discussing the translations according to the NWT, which you use as your authority for the correct translation of John 1:1 and John 8:58 as well as any other controversial rendering of Biblical texts by you JWs.

The Instructor

my reasoning was not based upon the way that the new world translation is translated you buffoon, I did not refer to it at all until i was asked what it said to which I explained that even it sticks to the grammatically incorrect Greek idiom rather than the correct English one rendering an 'awkward', translation, so you have been proven a liar once again, no one can trust anything you say, you believe your own propaganda, mostly lies and subterfuge and all you can hope to do is smear others with your own rotten sayings.