1. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 May '17 17:111 edit
    This is the strongest, clearest passage from the writings of Paul, which summarises the entire doctrine of the true Christian. It demolishes some of the long-held and cherished false doctrines of some churches, and puts things in perspective. This is my summary below, but read the passage for yourself:

    A. Some Christians are dull of hearing and instead of growing and becoming teachers, they do not understand and need teaching themselves
    B. The difference between Milk and Meat [explained in another thread]
    C. In order to graduate and move up to perfection the Christian needs to stop repeating the same basic doctrines over and over, doctrines of faith, the death of Christ, the resurrection etc etc. Constant repetition instead of moving forward leads to stagnation.
    D. The moving forward to perfection process is essential because if God grants all these good heavenly gifts to the Christian, and they still fall away there are dire consequences.
    E. Christians that bear fruit receives blessing from God, while Christians who produce nothing [ie stuck on milk] will be destroyed.
    F. Things which leads to eternal life - work and labour.
    G. Diligent Christians who are patient to the end will inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Here is the passage :

    A. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    B. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    C. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation
    of repentance from dead works, and
    of faith toward God,
    Of the doctrine of baptisms, and
    of laying on of hands, and
    of resurrection of the dead, and
    of eternal judgment.

    D. And this will we do, if God permit.
    For it is impossible for those who
    were once enlightened, and
    have tasted of the heavenly gift, and
    were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And
    have tasted the good word of God, and
    the powers of the world to come,
    If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    E. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    F. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

    G. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    (Hebrews 5:11-6:12 KJV)
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 May '17 17:17
    Some of the church doctrines which run contrary to this are:

    That faith alone is required, nothing else.
    That constant talking about matters of elementary doctrine is a good thing. Paul said clearly to move on to higher things and dont lay the same foundation over and over.
    That the promise of eternal life cannot be withdrawn
    That eternal life is granted immediately.
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    02 May '17 23:00
    You should read Galatians Rajk. It's funny how you should quote the very verses in Hebrews that apply to you. You have fallen away from grace by going back under the law.

    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    That's what it means. Those verses were written to those that received Christ by faith, then fell away back to the law.

    Galatians 2:20,21
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Galatians 3:3
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    By the way, nice isn't it not to have fmf menacing you the way he does Christians that believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 May '17 23:111 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    You should read Galatians Rajk. It's funny how you should quote the very verses in Hebrews that apply to you. You have fallen away from grace by going back under the law.

    [i]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and t ...[text shortened]... not to have fmf menacing you the way he does Christians that believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    First I dont discuss people and personalities. That is for people of lesser intellect to engage in. So your crack about FMF is of no relevance.

    Nowhere did the writer of Hebrews state or imply Those verses were written to those that received Christ by faith, then fell away back to the law.. That is a pile of nonsense.

    Let me remind you of what Hebrews says to Christians who failed to progress... Forget the milk
    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,[the milk] let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation
    of repentance from dead works, and
    of faith toward God,
    Of the doctrine of baptisms, and
    of laying on of hands, and
    of resurrection of the dead, and
    of eternal judgment.


    Get to the meat. THE MEAT IS PERFECTION. But I know you. You believe that you have to do nothing.
    The meat leads to eternal life.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 May '17 15:10
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    First I dont discuss people and personalities. That is for people of lesser intellect to engage in. So your crack about FMF is of no relevance.

    Nowhere did the writer of Hebrews state or imply Those verses were written to those that received Christ by faith, then fell away back to the law.. That is a pile of nonsense.

    Let me remind you of what ...[text shortened]... TION. But I know you. You believe that you have to do nothing.
    The meat leads to eternal life.
    Son of Roigam ... where are you? 🙂
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    03 May '17 16:56
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    First I dont discuss people and personalities. That is for people of lesser intellect to engage in. So your crack about FMF is of no relevance.

    Nowhere did the writer of Hebrews state or imply Those verses were written to those that received Christ by faith, then fell away back to the law.. That is a pile of nonsense.

    Let me remind you of what ...[text shortened]... TION. But I know you. You believe that you have to do nothing.
    The meat leads to eternal life.
    "Nowhere did the writer of Hebrews state or imply Those verses were written to those that received Christ by faith, then fell away back to the law.. That is a pile of nonsense."

    You see Rajk, it is statements like that that cause me to question whether you are truly a Christian, or just an imposter.

    You are simply not reading the verses.

    For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    It's in plain English. The verses are referring to believers, Jewish believers to be precise, that "fall away" back to the sacrificial system after being enlightened to the fact that Jesus was the end of the sacrifices for sin.

    Of course, you would have to understand the entire context of Hebrews to know that. Obviously you don't. Instead you make a pretense of being a mature meat eater, when in reality you're just a legalistic control freak posing as a Christian.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 May '17 20:032 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"Nowhere did the writer of Hebrews state or imply Those verses were written to those that received Christ by faith, then fell away back to the law.. That is a pile of nonsense."

    You see Rajk, it is statements like that that cause me to question whether you are truly a Christian, or just an imposter.

    You are simply not reading the verses.

    [i ...[text shortened]... mature meat eater, when in reality you're just a legalistic control freak posing as a Christian.[/b]
    A Christian is someone who believes in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and one who applies these teachings in a meaningful way to their life. You seem to believe in the doctrine that your church has preached to you.

    Your church told you that nothing is required of you except proclaiming you faith in Christ. The Bible says no such thing. But still you accept what the church said.

    There is nothing in the whole of Hebrews that condemns the Law of Moses, neither does it ever refer to a follower of the Law of Moses as one who has fallen away.

    If you could provide the reference to support your claim you would have. But there is none.

    I provide references in support of my beliefs. All you have is what the pastor told you.
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    03 May '17 22:46
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    A Christian is someone who believes in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles and one who applies these teachings in a meaningful way to their life. You seem to believe in the doctrine that your church has preached to you.

    Your church told you that nothing is required of you except proclaiming you faith in Christ. The Bible says no such thing. But st ...[text shortened]... ne.

    I provide references in support of my beliefs. All you have is what the pastor told you.
    Dump the judgementalism Rajk. You're being nothing but presumptuous about me.

    Let's go back to square one. Jesus paid the price for the sin of the world. You and I had nothing to do with it. We can add nothing to Jesus. We are saved because of what Jesus did. We can add nothing to it. Jesus died for all our sins. Past, present and future.

    There's nothing anyone can do to add to what Jesus did on our behalf.

    If you think you can or need to do anything to secure your salvation, then you're back under the law.
  9. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 May '17 23:052 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    Dump the judgementalism Rajk. You're being nothing but presumptuous about me.

    Let's go back to square one. Jesus paid the price for the sin of the world. You and I had nothing to do with it. We can add nothing to Jesus. We are saved because of what Jesus did. We can add nothing to it. Jesus died for [b]all
    our sins. Past, present and future.

    Ther ...[text shortened]... u think you can or need to do anything to secure your salvation, then you're back under the law.[/b]
    Judgmentalism? Are you not the one that has been calling me a bunch of names in the last few months? From idiot to fool, and all in between. The worst name I called you was 'son in law of roigam' 😀

    Anyway words dont hurt me. Im not a weakling [like some sissies on this site]. Im interested in the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. nothing else. What you are posting is a pile of church dogma which is not supported in the Bible.

    Here is a few unbiblical statements you made which if you do find in the Bible. I will apologise to you and change my doctrine immediately:

    1. Jesus died for our sins past, present and future
    2. If you think you can or need to do anything to secure your salvation, then you're back under the law.


    None of these critical points are in the Bible. If they are there then please provide a reference.

    Your failure to understand the truth about these two points is your downfall.
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    04 May '17 00:00
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Judgmentalism? Are you not the one that has been calling me a bunch of names in the last few months? From idiot to fool, and all in between. The worst name I called you was 'son in law of roigam' 😀

    Anyway words dont hurt me. Im not a weakling [like some sissies on this site]. Im interested in the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. nothing else. What y ...[text shortened]... de a reference.

    Your failure to understand the truth about these two points is your downfall.
    "Judgementalism? Are you not the one that has been calling me a bunch of names in the last few months?"

    Don't play the innocent card. You spend all your time in this forum denigrating Christians and the the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Christ died for the sins of the world. There's nothing to add to it. No works. Eternal life is a gift undeserved given by the grace of God.

    Let that sink into your head.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 May '17 00:08
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"Judgementalism? Are you not the one that has been calling me a bunch of names in the last few months?"

    Don't play the innocent card. You spend all your time in this forum denigrating Christians and the the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Christ died for the sins of the world. There's nothing to add to it. No works. Eternal life is a gift undeserved given by the grace of God.

    Let that sink into your head.[/b]
    Let it sink in your head that you make a pile of statements which are unbiblical and which you cannot support, otherwise you would have discussed it and provided the references. The fact you cannot support it is the reason why you get emotional and abusive. You know that what I say has the support of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

    Your statements are nonsense. If they are not show me these in the bible :

    1. Jesus died for our sins past, present and future
    2. If you think you can or need to do anything to secure your salvation, then you're back under the law.
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    04 May '17 00:14
    "None of these critical points are in the Bible. If they are there then please provide a reference."

    1. "Jesus died for our sins past, present and future."

    1 Corinthians 15:3
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    Not part of our sins, not some of our sins, but all our sins.

    2. "If you think you can or need to do anything to secure your salvation, then you're back under the law."

    Galatians 2:21
    I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.[/b]
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    04 May '17 00:24
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"None of these critical points are in the Bible. If they are there then please provide a reference."

    1. "Jesus died for our sins past, present and future."

    1 Corinthians 15:3
    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    Not part of our sins, not some ...[text shortened]... ustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.[/b][/b]
    Its the approach of a mental retard to do what you are doing. Does that one verse say, past present and future? NOOOOOOO! There are other verses which clarifies, elaborates, explains .. remember scripture interprets scripture?

    Another verse say Christ died for SINS THAT ARE PAST [that means NOT past present and future] ... PAST... Got it?

    Again, several other verses state that if you continue to sin then there are no more sacrifice for sins. So Christ did NOT die for ALL FUTURE SINS.

    Can you / or your pastor read properly or is English your/his second language.
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    04 May '17 00:32
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Its the approach of a mental retard to do what you are doing. Does that one verse say, past present and future? NOOOOOOO! There are other verses which clarifies, elaborates, explains .. remember scripture interprets scripture?

    Another verse say Christ died for SINS THAT ARE PAST [that means NOT past present and future] ... PAST... Got it?

    Again, ...[text shortened]... L FUTURE SINS.

    Can you / or your pastor read properly or is English your/his second language.
    Salvation is of God. There's nothing you can do to earn eternal life. It is the gift of God.

    You have the same problem as Cain who thought he could bring to the altar his own good works to please God. Your righteousness is as filthy rags.
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    04 May '17 00:37
    Originally posted by josephw
    We can add nothing to Jesus. We are saved because of what Jesus did. We can add nothing to it. Jesus died for [b]all our sins. Past, present and future.

    There's nothing anyone can do to add to what Jesus did on our behalf.[/b]
    But what about the stuff that Jesus asked you to do?
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