Originally posted by Tom WolseyThen it can be presumed that both faith and works are required. Not just one of them.
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkFaith. Required? Yes. Check.
Faith without works is dead. Doing good works because you feel obliged to do them to earn your salvation is legalism, as opposed to doing them naturally due to a regenerated heart.
Works. Required? Yes. Check.
i.e. Faith without "doing works naturally" = no "salvation".
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWe agree. It is only Jesus Christ however, who knows who is doing good works and who are not.
Faith without works is dead. Doing good works because you feel obliged to do them to earn your salvation is legalism, as opposed to doing them naturally due to a regenerated heart.
Originally posted by Tom WolseyNone of this is in the Bible pal. Did you get it out of your church handbook?
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false. But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness.
[This was a specific case of certain patriarchs and is not a general rule]
It also says that faith cannot exist without works.
[The Bible says no such thing]
If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false.
[The Bible says no such thing]
But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate [The Bible says no such thing]
Originally posted by FMFShe is a church handbook Christian .. the type to elevate the church doctrine above the doctrine of Christ and the Aposltes. So is Sonship and Son-in Law of Roigam .. same type.
The disputed doctrine is surely from the "book" you mention. Where else is a Christian supposed to obtain Christian doctrine from?
Originally posted by Tom WolseyYou're right, the bible doesn't say ' a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.' But then, the bible doesn't say a lot of things. One can not find confirmation in omission. (Or you venture on to very dangerous territory indeed).
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false. But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.
The idea that a man can live an unrighteous life right up until his death bed, void of good works, and then find salvation through a last second conversion will be difficult for you to support biblically.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeHave you ever read about the guy next to Jesus on the cross?
You're right, the bible doesn't say ' a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.' But then, the bible doesn't say a lot of things. One can not find confirmation in omission. (Or you venture on to very dangerous territory indeed).
The idea that a man can live an unrighteous life right up until his death bed, void ...[text shortened]... find salvation through a last second conversion will be difficult for you to support biblically.
Originally posted by Tom WolseyI agree, it is the faith that counts toward righteousness and it is faith that will lead a person
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false. But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.
to do good works, even believing in Jesus is counted as works.
Originally posted by Rajk999So you judge me. And other Christians. So admit it now, finally, instead of this mealy-mouthed claim that I and others "do" this or that. You do not know me. And you do not know others you have accused in this forum of some kind of "backyard Christianity", when their Christianity is mainstream. You lean unto your own understanding, which is nearly always a mistake, as it certainly is in your case. Your only God is a book, and not the man himself. You admit that you have no relationship with Jesus. You make a mockery of Christ's teachings. You know nothing of love for your fellow man, let alone your Christian brothers.
She is a church handbook Christian .. the type to elevate the church doctrine above the doctrine of Christ and the Aposltes. So is Sonship and Son-in Law of Roigam .. same type.
And you sure as hell do not know what you are talking about. You're a hypocrite. And a liar, as you bear false witness of Christians in this forum. A hypocritical "Christian" liar with no testimony. Zero. None. You preach, yet you do not follow through. Christians in this forum have nothing to learn from you.