Meat, the hard truth - Not for Milk Christians

Originally posted by FMF
The works are either required or they are not, presumably.

They are not solely required for salvation, faith is. Works follow faith.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
They are not solely required for salvation, faith is. Works follow faith.

So, if works do not follow?

Are works optional?

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false.

Then it can be presumed that both faith and works are required. Not just one of them.

Originally posted by FMF
So, if works do not follow?

Are works optional?

Faith without works is dead. Doing good works because you feel obliged to do them to earn your salvation is legalism, as opposed to doing them naturally due to a regenerated heart.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Faith without works is dead. Doing good works because you feel obliged to do them to earn your salvation is legalism, as opposed to doing them naturally due to a regenerated heart.

Faith. Required? Yes. Check.
Works. Required? Yes. Check.

i.e. Faith without "doing works naturally" = no "salvation".

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Faith without works is dead. Doing good works because you feel obliged to do them to earn your salvation is legalism, as opposed to doing them naturally due to a regenerated heart.

We agree. It is only Jesus Christ however, who knows who is doing good works and who are not.

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false. But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.

None of this is in the Bible pal. Did you get it out of your church handbook?

The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness.
[This was a specific case of certain patriarchs and is not a general rule]

It also says that faith cannot exist without works.
[The Bible says no such thing]

If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false.
[The Bible says no such thing]

But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate [The Bible says no such thing]

Originally posted by FMF
The disputed doctrine is surely from the "book" you mention. Where else is a Christian supposed to obtain Christian doctrine from?

She is a church handbook Christian .. the type to elevate the church doctrine above the doctrine of Christ and the Aposltes. So is Sonship and Son-in Law of Roigam .. same type.

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false. But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.

You're right, the bible doesn't say ' a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.' But then, the bible doesn't say a lot of things. One can not find confirmation in omission. (Or you venture on to very dangerous territory indeed).

The idea that a man can live an unrighteous life right up until his death bed, void of good works, and then find salvation through a last second conversion will be difficult for you to support biblically.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
You're right, the bible doesn't say ' a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.' But then, the bible doesn't say a lot of things. One can not find confirmation in omission. (Or you venture on to very dangerous territory indeed).

The idea that a man can live an unrighteous life right up until his death bed, void ...[text shortened]... find salvation through a last second conversion will be difficult for you to support biblically.

Have you ever read about the guy next to Jesus on the cross?

Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
The bible says it is faith that is counted as righteousness. It also says that faith cannot exist without works. If someone claims faith but willfully produces zero works, then it can be presumed his or her claim is false. But by no means does the bible say, for example, a true deathbed conversion (after which works cannot follow) is not adequate.

I agree, it is the faith that counts toward righteousness and it is faith that will lead a person
to do good works, even believing in Jesus is counted as works.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Have you ever read about the guy next to Jesus on the cross?

Apart from that. 😉

Originally posted by KellyJay
Have you ever read about the guy next to Jesus on the cross?

That was apparently a story that simply demonstrated that even a non-believer who was mocking Jesus, even as he died, could be granted eternal life; it was God's/Jesus' prerogative.

Originally posted by Rajk999
She is a church handbook Christian .. the type to elevate the church doctrine above the doctrine of Christ and the Aposltes. So is Sonship and Son-in Law of Roigam .. same type.

So you judge me. And other Christians. So admit it now, finally, instead of this mealy-mouthed claim that I and others "do" this or that. You do not know me. And you do not know others you have accused in this forum of some kind of "backyard Christianity", when their Christianity is mainstream. You lean unto your own understanding, which is nearly always a mistake, as it certainly is in your case. Your only God is a book, and not the man himself. You admit that you have no relationship with Jesus. You make a mockery of Christ's teachings. You know nothing of love for your fellow man, let alone your Christian brothers.

And you sure as hell do not know what you are talking about. You're a hypocrite. And a liar, as you bear false witness of Christians in this forum. A hypocritical "Christian" liar with no testimony. Zero. None. You preach, yet you do not follow through. Christians in this forum have nothing to learn from you.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Have you ever read about the guy next to Jesus on the cross?

The bible never says the guy on the cross lived a life of sin void of good works. He was caught stealing and that is all that we know.