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Originally posted by SwissGambiti can try?
Can you give me an example of an involuntary sin?
‘Or in case a soul swears to the extent of speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good as respects anything at all that the man might speak thoughtlessly in a sworn statement, although it had been hidden from him, and yet he himself has come to know it, then he has become guilty as respects one of these things. Leviticus 5:4
in the above instance, speaking thoughtlessly, perhaps reacting to a situation out of egotism, or uttering some profanity in the heat of the moment may constitute a sin, or offering to do something which one cannot possibly reasonably hope to fulfil constituting a lack of modesty
any good?
Originally posted by daniel58Yes the removal of such a person hopefully will accomplish two things. It will keep the influence of that person from harming the congregation and even more it might help the wrongdoer to change his ways. which would be fantastic. None ever want to see the loss of a brother or sister.
We are supposed to do are best, if someone is giving scandal throw them out tell they repent.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNot bad. If (say) you accidentally hit your thumb with a hammer, you're allowed to swear without getting kicked out of the church.
i can try?
‘Or in case a soul swears to the extent of speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good as respects anything at all that the man might speak thoughtlessly in a sworn statement, although it had been hidden from him, and yet he himself has come to know it, then he has become guilty as respects one of these things. Leviti ...[text shortened]... which one cannot possibly reasonably hope to fulfil constituting a lack of modesty
any good?
Originally posted by SwissGambitHowever, that being said, attraction seems involuntary also. When I say that I find, for example, Jessica Biel more attractive than Britney Spears, this was not a decision on my part. Nor do I think it is a decision that some are attracted to people of the same sex. I would tend to classify the occasional homosexual tryst as an 'involuntary' sin as defined in this thread.
Not bad. If (say) you accidentally hit your thumb with a hammer, you're allowed to swear without getting kicked out of the church.
Originally posted by SwissGambitWe do understand that many don't agree with what seems to be harsh and sometimes it does not have a good result. I have known many that have never come back. But it's not mans standards or approvel that the Bible says to worry about. It's God's and God's only.
Well, I am coming to understand you/your church's particular standards. They may not hold in other churches. In others, the hammer man may forever be looked on as the guy who said f*** and be shamed out.
If you look back at what happend in Jesus's time and what was done then you'll see this is no different. Why not except something that was done by the early Christian congregations. Were they wrong? Is God's arrangments out of date? 1Cor 5:13.
The Bible was given to all to look and learn from. And many examples were given in the Bible on purpose for us to follow.
But most don't understand why be so strick and just not let them slide. They are really good people over all!!! Eph 4:19 show a little light on why most don't understand.
Unfortunently that thinking has become the norm as we get deeper into this system.
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"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."
Those of you who choose to ostracize homosexuals, yet continue to sin, are hypocrites. Those of you who choose to ostracize homosexuals, yet don't ostracize those who are gluttons, greedy, etc. are hypocrites. You speak of not "picking and choosing", yet you pick and choose which sins require ostracization. Those of you who declare a "sad state of morals and mentality', yet to continue to sin yourselves are hypocrites. Those of you who say "It isn't any man on this earth that will judge us, only God", yet judge homosexuals as unfit to be a part of your congregation, are hypocrites.
If you ever wonder why "Christians" have a reputation for being hypocrites, you need only look in the mirror. What a sorry display.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneGo back, take your time and read the last few pages of postings. This has all been explained.
[b]"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothe ...[text shortened]... tion for being hypocrites, you need only look in the mirror. What a sorry display.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne[/b]
[b]"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brothe tion for being hypocrites, you need only look in the mirror. What a sorry display.
I think you are taking the words of the New Testament to automatically mean that congregations of Christians all "excommunicate" gay people just as soon as it is known that they are gay. I have never met with any churches which had such a practice. Yet we adhere as best we can to the New Testament. We believe that the Holy Spirit is in the business of sanctifying all manner of sinners.
Have you heard of Exodus International (not my congrgation):
Here is a Christian ministry which obviously has reached out to help homosexuals who desire a way out of that life.
http://www.exodus-international.org/
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Personal Testimonies of people healed from homosexual lifestyles through the Christian faith:
http://exodus.to/stories
" Real Stories brings together hundreds of stories from real-life people who have struggled with homosexuality themselves or have been affected by a loved-one's homosexual attractions.
Stories is divided into 4 major categories, and can also be searched from the Search box at the top of this page.
Download the Freedom Brochure, with info about Exodus and Stories of Change.
Women Who Have Struggled with Homosexual Attractions
Stories from women who have overcome lesbianism and gender confusion.
Men Who Have Struggled with Homosexual Attractions
Stories from men who have overcome homosexuality.
Family and Friends
Stories from families who were affected by their loved one's homosexuality.
Pastors and Counselors
Stories from those who have reached out in compassion and love to men and women who struggle with unwanted homosexual attractions, or who are gay-identified. "
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Originally posted by jaywillMy post was about the hypocrisy exhibited by a few of the posters here. "Those of you who choose to ostracize homosexuals, yet continue to sin, are hypocrites. Those of you who choose to ostracize homosexuals, yet don't ostracize those who are gluttons, greedy, etc. are hypocrites. You speak of not "picking and choosing", yet you pick and choose which sins require ostracization. Those of you who declare a "sad state of morals and mentality', yet to continue to sin yourselves are hypocrites. Those of you who say "It isn't any man on this earth that will judge us, only God", yet judge homosexuals as unfit to be a part of your congregation, are hypocrites."
I think you are taking the words of the New Testament to automatically mean that congregations of Christians all "excommunicate" gay people just as soon as it is known that they are gay. I have never met with any churches which had such a practice. Yet we adhere as best we can to the New Testament. We believe that the Holy Spirit is in the business ...[text shortened]... o help homosexuals who desire a way out of that life.
http://www.exodus-international.org/[/b]
If they continue to sin, yet choose to ostracize homosexuals, they are hypocrites. The same for all this other points listed above.
Read their posts. You will know them by their fruit. Their bigotry and hypocrisy are quite evident.
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Originally posted by galveston75I read them. You fit the criteria I've stated and are a hypocrite - all your rationalizations aside. If you continue to sin, you are no better. You admit that you "sin daily", therefore you have a daily practice. First take the log out of your own eye. You call the sin of others "gross", yet minimize your own. Was not the passage I quoted directed at those like you? If you allow others who continue to sin to stay in your congregation, you are a bigot. This includes those who are gluttonous, greedy, etc. Living in the US as you do, you should have plenty of overweight and / or rich people to choose from.
Go back, take your time and read the last few pages of postings. This has all been explained.
Go back, take your time and read what I wrote. It's undeniable.
Originally posted by galveston75Are God's arrangements out of date? Are 'his' laws against homosexuality out of date? Undoubtedly. But that's not what I'm after here. I was mainly trying to see if you pick on people equally - do you throw all repetitive sinners out, and not just homosexuals? If so, I can at least credit you with being consistent, even if I don't agree with your moral code.
We do understand that many don't agree with what seems to be harsh and sometimes it does not have a good result. I have known many that have never come back. But it's not mans standards or approvel that the Bible says to worry about. It's God's and God's only.
If you look back at what happend in Jesus's time and what was done then you'll see this is no ...[text shortened]... .
Unfortunently that thinking has become the norm as we get deeper into this system.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobiestill willful. If we are TRULY in harmony with God, then we won't have "thoughtless" slip ups. See the point? All sin is willful, at least the argument can be made that way. All have fallen short of the Glory of God. It is not your (or anyone elses) place to judge someone elses morality. As Christ said "Judge not lest ye be judged" Each persons sin is between him/her and God. Disfellowship is a very Pharisee-an thing to do. Good luck with that.
i can try?
‘Or in case a soul swears to the extent of speaking thoughtlessly with his lips to do evil or to do good as respects anything at all that the man might speak thoughtlessly in a sworn statement, although it had been hidden from him, and yet he himself has come to know it, then he has become guilty as respects one of these things. Leviti ...[text shortened]... which one cannot possibly reasonably hope to fulfil constituting a lack of modesty
any good?