Originally posted by checkbaiter After some thought and reflection, I posted hastily. I remembered something from the past and had to search high and low to find this quote from a book by a man named Leith Anderson, entitled "Praying to the God you can trust"...
[quote]During WWII, fifteen American soldiers prayed with their chaplain the night before the Battle of Tawara. He later repo ...[text shortened]... o are born again are already redeemed and should have no problem giving their lives for another.
Risking your life when you do not believe in an after-life is surely more unselfish.
Originally posted by KellyJay You should listen to this sermon, I heard it years ago right after I became a Christian, and
it more than likely shaped my Christian walk more than most. The end of it has a story
close to what you talked about. This was before the internet a friend had it on a tape, I
was amazed to find it online.
I'll say it is a little dry at first, but it is power ...[text shortened]... a Shirt is the name of the sermon.
I didn't find any of it dry. It was indeed powerful and eye opening...thanks for sharing this. I was able to get it in text and saved it. I will also pass it along to friends...
Originally posted by checkbaiter I didn't find any of it dry. It was indeed powerful and eye opening...thanks for sharing this. I was able to get it in text and saved it. I will also pass it along to friends...
Glad you enjoyed it. I agree it is powerful and eye opening, it does show some of our faults
rather clearly.
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07 Sep '15 18:32
Originally posted by KellyJay Glad you enjoyed it. I agree it is powerful and eye opening, it does show some our faults
rather clearly.
We frequently need a check up from the neck up.... 🙂
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07 Sep '15 22:011 edit
Lay These Things Before the Brothers
A short word from a faithful New Testament minister feeding God's people.
Originally posted by checkbaiter Hello T.O.O., yes religion can be manipulative and wrong in my opinion. But my interest in your posting this is, do you reject a moral code? And if not, who do you think gets to proclaim one? Who sets the rules?
No I don't reject a moral code.
All one need is a concept upon which to hang decisions of morality.
For example, the Golden Rule has been recognized as one such concept through the ages, across many cultures and within both theistic and secular schools of thought.
The following is just a subset of what's posted at the cited link:
http://www.uhj.net/the-golden-rule.html
BUDDHISM:
"Hurt not others with that which pains yourself or in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. One should seek for others the happiness one desires for one's self"
(Udana-Varqa, 5:18)
HINDUISM:
"This is the sum of duty: do naught unto others that which would cause pain if done unto you."
(Mahabharata 5:1517)
"Do not to others what ye do not wish done to yourself; and wish for others too, what ye desire and long for, for yourself. This is the whole of Dharma, heed it well."
(The Celestial Song, 2:65)
ZOROASTRIANISM:
"That nature ONLY is good when it shall NOT DO unto another whatever is not good for its own self."
(Dadistan-i-Dinik, 94:5)
"Whatsoever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others."
(Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29)
That which is good for all and any one, for whomsoever - that is good for me. What I hold good for self, I should for all. Only Law Universal, is true Law."
(Zoroaster, Yasana-Gathas)
JAINIST:
"A man should wander about treating all creatures as he himself would be treated."
(Sutrakritanga 1.11.33)
CONFUCIANISM:
"Do not unto others what you would not have them do unto you."
(Analects, 15:23)
"If one strives to treat others as he would be treated by them, he will come near the perfect life."
(Book of Meng Tzu)
NATIVE AMERICAN:
"Love your friend and never desert him. If you see him surrounded by the enemy do not run away; go to him, and if you cannot save him, be killed together and let your bones lie side by side."
(Sur-AR-Ale-Shar, The Lessons of the Lone Chief)
"Do not kill or injure your neighbor, for it is not him that you injure, you injure yourself. But do good to him, therefore add to his days of happiness as you add to your own. Do not wrong or hate your neighbor, for it is not him that you wrong, you wrong yourself. But love him, for The Great Spirit (Moneto) loves him also as he loves you."
(Shawnee)
"Respect for all life is the foundation."
(The Great Law of Peace)
AFRICAN TRADITIONAL RELIGION:
"A SAGE is ingenuous and leads his life after comprehending the parity of the killed and the killer. THEREFORE, neither does he cause violence to others nor does he make others do so."
(Yoruba Proverb, Nigeria)
"One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."
(Yoruba Proverb, Nigeria)
Originally posted by vistesd A well thought out OP, that gets at the twists and turns that can be involved—but I think that twhitehead has offered (in encapsulated form) precisely the counter to such self-centeredness.
Further, I would suggest (without having the time now to look up various texts) that it is when we act in that way (“laying down”—literally, “placing”, so it doesn’t j ...[text shortened]... ditation[/i] (“Lord, when did we . . . .?” ) that is the ideal that is set. I am far from it.
I think that twhitehead has offered (in encapsulated form) precisely the counter to such self-centeredness.
Not really. The point of the OP was to show some of the various ways that religions incorporate self-centered beliefs regarding adherence to moral codes into their doctrine and how egregiously distant some are from a non-self-centered adherence.
Originally posted by lemon lime I think there is a more practical way of looking at this other than calling it self centered. If there was such a place as 'chess heaven', and only those who played by the rules were allowed to be there, could limited access be called 'self centered' because rule breakers are denied?
I've played informal OTB games with a few people who habitually nag a ...[text shortened]... s access into 'chess heaven'? And is it unfair and self serving to deny access to rule breakers?
I think there is a more practical way of looking at this other than calling it self centered.
Self-centered is what it is. Non-self-centered adherence to moral codes does not involve additional "rewards", the ability to "substitute" some lesser personal "sacrifice" and certainly not the ability to "substitute" a "sacrifice" wherein another makes the "sacrifice" for them.
Originally posted by lemon lime [b]If the sovereign realm (basileia—“kingdom” ) of God is just for those who abide by the rules—no need for the gospel at all.
Actually, the gospel (or good news) is needed because no one is able to abide by the rules perfectly and all the time. God isn't interested in good people or perfect people, because in God's eyes these people don't exist. B ...[text shortened]... gh they were righteous even though they were well aware of scripture saying NO one is righteous.[/b]
Actually, the gospel (or good news) is needed because no one is able to abide by the rules perfectly and all the time.
According to Ezekiel, God would disagree the "good news" is required:
Ezekiel 18
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. 28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. 31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”
Jesus would also disagree:
John 8
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.
Originally posted by Suzianne Just say what you mean without the circumlocution.
"Christianity is self-centered."
Oh, I see now why you did it that way. It does sound kinda stupid when you just blurt out what you mean.
As I responded to vistesd, "The point of the OP was to show some of the various ways that religions incorporate self-centered beliefs regarding adherence to moral codes into their doctrine and how egregiously distant some are from a non-self-centered adherence."
As to your assertion, perhaps you keep in mind how Christianity is often "sold" which boils down to, "Accept the 'free gift' and GET your reward". If Christianity was about non-self-centered adherence to moral codes it would be more like this: "Humbly adhere to the moral code".
Originally posted by twhitehead It all comes down to the age old question: is being good for self serving reasons as good as being good for the sake of being good?
And should we actually be good for the sake of being good? If so, why?
Jesus says the law is to be loving, but are you truly loving if you do it because its the law? Why follow Jesus in the first place?
It all comes down to the age old question: is being good for self serving reasons as good as being good for the sake of being good?
No it isn't.
And should we actually be good for the sake of being good? If so, why? Yes. If one isn't "good for the sake of being good", one isn't truly "good".
Jesus says the law is to be loving, but are you truly loving if you do it because its the law? Why follow Jesus in the first place?
Matthew 7
12“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
It's basically just a concept upon which to hang decisions of morality.
He also basically restates the concept with the following which I assume is what you are alluding to:
Originally posted by CalJust Originally posted by vistesd [b]It seems to me there is clearly a paradox in the two great commandments to love—a bit like a Zen koan perhaps. A commandment to do what is beyond what can effectively be commanded. Obedience can be commanded; acts of compassion or generosity can be commanded; even worship (of a kind) can be commanded—but love with a ...[text shortened]... t some stage the instinctive urge to save her offspring weakens, and self-preservation kicks in.
Ultimately, it can be shown that everything we do we do out of one of two motivations - to gain pleasure or to avoid pain. So actually there is no absolutely unselfish act of love or even kindness - but sometimes only sub-consciously so.
From what I gather there is continuum from those whose motivation primarily derives from the desire to gain pleasure or to avoid pain to those whose motivation does not primarily derive from the motivation to gain pleasure or to avoid pain. Granted it's heavily weighted to the former, but that doesn't mean the continuum does not exist.
Originally posted by Pudgenik I think it is interesting to point out that Jesus, in talking of who were accepted in heaven, spoke of those who did things for others, without regard of themselves. "Why Lord, what have we done to receive. And the King said to them, you fed the hungry, you clothed the naked, you helped the sick. When you did it for them you did it for me too" (I know the ...[text shortened]... add, Jesus never says, "you need to Know me too" So the statement is open for all - EVERYONE!!!
Christianity has drifted very far from what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth.
Moral Codes and Self-Centered Beliefs regarding Adherence
07 Sep '15 04:22
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