Originally posted by KellyJay
Difficult to know anyone you reject or don't know, yet according to you can be saved by
doing good works.

I dont understand .. " Difficult to know anyone you reject or don't know,".. what do you mean by that?

Is not Christ saying that people can be saved by good works, or more correctly granted eternal life on the basis of good works?

Why that bothers you or conflicts with your doctrine is because you do not understand what 'saved by grace' means neither do you understand what Christ died for. There are several meanings in the Bible for the word 'saved'

Christ died for the inherited sins brought into the world by Adam. Christ did not die for ALL your sins and the Bible says so very clearly. I notice you keep ignoring FMFs question about your 'future sins'.

People come into Gods kingdom in a variety of ways. Certainly your method is fine. You believe in Christ, you lift up Christ, you go to church, sing hymns, you read the Bible, you do good works etc. That is one way. However, failure to do the good works will stop you from entering. Saying you believe in Christ alone is not going to get you eternal life [thats mouth worship and hypocrisy].

I notice you also ignore what the Bible says about 'knowing Christ' which is contrary to what you claim it means. Take your doctrine from Christ. Ignore the pastor.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I dont understand .. " Difficult to know anyone you reject or don't know,".. what do you mean by that?

Is not Christ saying that people can be saved by good works, or more correctly granted eternal life on the basis of good works?

Why that bothers you or conflicts with your doctrine is because you do not understand what 'saved by grace' means ne ...[text shortened]... ch is contrary to what you claim it means. Take your doctrine from Christ. Ignore the pastor.

We are not saved by our works, but faith and that is a gift of God. We do works of that there
is no doubt. You push that some without Christ by virtue of their efforts will earn their way
into God's kingdom and that is not true.

Originally posted by KellyJay
We are not saved by our works, but faith and that is a gift of God. We do works of that there
is no doubt. You push that some without Christ by virtue of their efforts will earn their way
into God's kingdom and that is not true.

Christ is doing the pushing. I have only quoted Christ so you are in effect ridiculing Christ. I guess you dont care about that as you are already saved .. correct ? and not even God can revoke that .. correct?

Christ death is a gift of God and his death was to pay for Adams sin or our inherited sin in the flesh. We do not deserve that. Because of Christ death, mankind has an opportunity for eternal life. Christ will decide who deserves eternal life NOT by who claims to know him but by who follows his commandments chief of which is loving your neighbour as yourself. Read Matt 25 again and the Epistle of John.

Whoever follows the commandments, Christ knows them and abides with them .. whoever. It could be anybody. THEY ARE NOT WITHOUT CHRIST [as you wrongly claim], CHRIST KNOWS THEM AND LIVES WITH THEM. They will be in Gods Kingdom.

Your focus is on the mechanics and the outward manifestations of Christianity - the expressions of faith, the mouth worship, the 'I love Jesus' songs, the slogans the talk and talk etc etc... these things you place greater emphasis on.

The inner man, the spiritual man, the real nitty gritty doing, working, action part of Christ teachings is lost to you... this is what Jesus preached and it is what he will value on judgment day.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ is doing the pushing. I have only quoted Christ so you are in effect ridiculing Christ. I guess you dont care about that as you are already saved .. correct ? and not even God can revoke that .. correct?

Christ death is a gift of God and his death was to pay for Adams sin or our inherited sin in the flesh. We do not deserve that. Because of Christ ...[text shortened]... ings is lost to you... this is what Jesus preached and it is what he will value on judgment day.

No I agree with everything Jesus said even what you quoted; however, you leave out a lot
of what He said. When He says that everyone who does not believe in Him is condemned
already you dismiss that, when He says that we must take up our crosses and follow Him
you dismiss that too. You are really Hell bent on suggesting people can be good enough
without Jesus' grace and mercy. I agree with you when you say that we must obey Him
and follow His commands which is quite difficult for someone who does not acknowledge
Him as Lord. Jesus does know His own, those He does not He will tell them that He never
knew them.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No I agree with everything Jesus said even what you quoted; however, you leave out a lot
of what He said. When He says that everyone who does not believe in Him is condemned
already you dismiss that, when He says that we must take up our crosses and follow Him
you dismiss that too. You are really Hell bent on suggesting people can be good enough
without ...[text shortened]... as Lord. Jesus does know His own, those He does not He will tell them that He never
knew them.

Everything in the New testament is centered around obedience to the commandments of Christ. The core teachings is not faith or belief or Knowing Christ .. IT IS OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST. In fact I already showed you were your idea of what it means to 'know Christ' is incorrect. To know Christ is to follow his commandments. Interesting that you choose to completely ignore what John said about knowing Christ. For me that says a lot about where your loyalties lie... with a church doctrine, doctrines of men.

You said ..When He says that everyone who does not believe in Him is condemned already you dismiss that,

I dismiss nothing. Belief or faith in Christ must come with following Christ and his commandments otherwise that belief or statement of faith is just empty words and hypocrisy. Do you not know that faith without works is dead, and that the greatest thing is charity and brotherly love? Not faith. Christ said to those who claimed to believe :

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

In other words Christ is saying .. who are you trying to fool with that useless empty faith? ME?

To take up your cross and follow Christ is to follow his commandments. Where and how did I dismiss that when that is all that Im preaching.

As for the people who Christ said that he did not Know and to depart from him ... Christ is telling that to EVILDOERS, not righteous people and those who do good works.

All people who follow Christ, demonstrate brotherly love, charitable love and do good works, and are known to Christ. In these people God dwells:

1 John 4:16 .. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Love is the fulfilling of the law

Originally posted by KellyJay
No I agree with everything Jesus said even what you quoted;
however, you leave out a lot of what He said. When He says that
everyone who does not believe in Him is condemned already

If someone lived their life exactly how Jesus would want
but they had never even heard of him .... would they get turned away?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
If someone lived their life exactly how Jesus would want
[b]but they had never even heard of him .... would they get turned away?[/b]

The perfect question to stump KJ. Bet his answer is a pile of waffle and straw. 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
Everything in the New testament is centered around obedience to the commandments of Christ. The core teachings is not faith or belief or Knowing Christ .. IT IS OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST. In fact I already showed you were your idea of what it means to 'know Christ' is incorrect. To know Christ is to follow his commandments. Interesting that you choose to complete ...[text shortened]... that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Love is the fulfilling of the law[/b]

You repeating your error does make your error correct.
I have told you time and time again, everyone who belongs to Christ will be obeying Him.
Where your views fall apart are those places where faith comes into play, we are saved
by faith it is a gift of God not our works! Will we being doing works, and good works to
boot, why yes! What happens to those that do not believe in Jesus Christ, according to
Jesus they are condemned already. That is an all inclusive statement, without Jesus you
are condemned already, if you do not pick up your cross and follow Him, you are not
worthy of Him because that is what He tells us to do. I've given you scripture time and
again on both of those points, more than a few people have tried to tell you we are saved
by faith not our works.

It all matters, but you selectively take what you want and disregard the rest.

Originally posted by Rajk999

Everything in the New testament is centered around obedience to the commandments of Christ. The core teachings is not faith or belief or Knowing Christ .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Christian never "graduates" from faith.

1.)

"As therefore you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in Him. " (Colossians 2:6)

The believer initially received Jesus Christ by faith. The believer has to continue to walk by faith. As they believed in Christ they must continue on to walk, step by step, in faith.

2.)

"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith ... . " (Eph. 3:17)

Initially the Spirit of Jesus Christ came into the believer through faith. For Him to settle down in every chamber of our heart is also through faith. He came at first when I received Him by faith.

For me to turn over my emotion, my will, my mind, my imagination, my memory, and every other part of my heart, is likewise through faith. That is faith that Christ can indeed be EVERYTHING to me and for me.

For Him to "make His home" in my heart is for Him to have full authority over my heart. And He gains that, chamber by chamber, through my ongoing faith.

So we Christians have to take Him to be our life. And that is a matter of faith from which we never graduate, not even until the day we expire.

Any self confidence like "Now I am a disciple and I can make it to do everything God commands" is foolish. The entire realm of God's economy is "in faith" from beginning to end.

" ... charge certain ones not to teach different things ... rather than God's economy which is in faith.

But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good conscience and out of unfeigned faith." ( 1 Timothy 1:4,5 )

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Everything in the New testament is centered around obedience to the commandments of Christ. The core teachings is not faith or belief or Knowing Christ .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Christian never "graduates" from faith.

1.)

"As therefore you have received Christ Jesus ...[text shortened]... d out of a good conscience and out of unfeigned faith." ( 1 Timothy 1:4,5 )

[/b]

You are another one like KJ. What you believe is NOT IN THE BIBLE. You [and the preacher you follow] fabricate doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

Here is what you say:
The Christian never "graduates" from faith.
Utter nonsense. Probably it is YOU that never graduate from faith.

Here is what Peter says:

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Peter 1:5-9)

Peter is saying that you start off with faith. But you cannot end there. You MUST ADD to that faith:
- virtue
- knowledge
- temperance
- godliness
- brotherly kindness
- charity.

You start off with FAITH the least important of all virtues and graduate to CHARITY the greatest of all virtues. Have you not read the Bible that of faith, hope and charity [love] the greatest is charity?

Christ and all the Apostles said the same thing.
Faith is dead without the other virtues.
Faith is useless unless it includes works.
Faith without these virtues is blind.
Faith without these virtues is barren.
Faith without these virtues is unfruitful

Please read your Bible.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You repeating your error does make your error correct.
I have told you time and time again, everyone who belongs to Christ will be obeying Him.
Where your views fall apart are those places where faith comes into play, we are saved
by faith it is a gift of God not our works! Will we being doing works, and good works to
boot, why yes! What happens to thos ...[text shortened]... not our works.

It all matters, but you selectively take what you want and disregard the rest.

So far what you believe is very far from what the Bible says and anyone reading these posts can see that as well. I will list a couple of them:

1. 'What it means to 'Know Christ'
The Bible says :
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1Jn 2:3-5)

You say to know Christ means:
- meet Christ
- get to know Christ
- spend time with Christ
- find out who Christ is

2. What it means to lift up Christ
Again the Bible says Christ lifting up means his crucifiction while you say a totally different thing.

Now you say this one:

3. I have told you time and time again, everyone who belongs to Christ will be obeying Him.

The Bible says no such thing. Please quote there the Bible says this.
The Bible does say something similar. However it is the reverse. It says:
Those who obey Christ, belong to Christ

As for other people telling me the same thing, as if that is of any value,.. I do not follow people like you appear to do. I follow Christ and the Apostles .. not what people interpretations are.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are another one like KJ. What you believe is NOT IN THE BIBLE. You [and the preacher you follow] fabricate doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

Here is what you say:
The Christian never "graduates" from faith.
Utter nonsense. Probably it is YOU that never graduate from faith.

Here is what Peter says:
...[text shortened]... these virtues is barren.
Faith without these virtues is unfruitful

Please read your Bible.

I find it amazing that we quote scripture to you about what we believe and you still go off
and say what we believe is not in the Bible. You must have blinders on is all I can say.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I find it amazing that we quote scripture to you about what we believe and you still go off
and say what we believe is not in the Bible. You must have blinders on is all I can say.

Well lets start off this this. Please quote where the Bible supports your statement on what it means to 'know Christ'.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So far what you believe is very far from what the Bible says and anyone reading these posts can see that as well. I will list a couple of them:

[b]1. 'What it means to 'Know Christ'
The Bible says :
[i]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the ...[text shortened]... like you appear to do. I follow Christ and the Apostles .. not what people interpretations are.[/b]

AGAIN, not disagreeing with you with respect to works in that we will do them. We will as
we are IN HIM walk out our faith doing the works of God. If you don't follow God's leading,
if you reject Him you will find yourself on the outs, unworthy. You can keep saying its all
works, but you are still ignoring the truth about it is by faith we are saved not works. The
scripture quoted here all point to Jesus Christ and what He did for us, not the efforts we
put into being righteous before God.

Ephesians 2:4-6New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ephesians 2:7-9New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well lets start off this this. Please quote where the Bible supports your statement on what it means to 'know Christ'.

I've given you scripture on this, and you dismissed it as you did when I pointed out to you
that Jesus said that those who believe in him are not condemned and those that do not
are condemned already, and they are not condemned because they didn't do enough good
works, but they didn't believe in Jesus.