Moral Codes and Self-Centered Beliefs regarding Adherence

Originally posted by checkbaiter
After some thought and reflection, I posted hastily. I remembered something from the past and had to search high and low to find this quote from a book by a man named Leith Anderson, entitled "Praying to the God you can trust"...
[quote]During WWII, fifteen American soldiers prayed with their chaplain the night before the Battle of Tawara. He later repo ...[text shortened]... o are born again are already redeemed and should have no problem giving their lives for another.

On the other side are the many Christians who support capital punishment.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Christianity has drifted very far from what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth.

Good grief ... how old are you?

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Good grief ... how old are you?

Are you mature enough to plainly state what you mean?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]I think there is a more practical way of looking at this other than calling it self centered.

Self-centered is what it is. Non-self-centered adherence to moral codes does not involve additional "rewards", the ability to "substitute" some lesser personal "sacrifice" and certainly not the ability to "substitute" a "sacrifice" wherein another makes the "sacrifice" for them.[/b]

Personally I think anything whose sole goal is to benefit man for man's sake is self
centered. Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

When we lift up Jesus Christ because of who He is and what He has done, and we do it
in the face of all the evil we are confronted with causes us to deny ourselves, and when
we do it in the face of loss in this life, it also is not for a self-centered gain as well, it is
really because He is worthy.

Additional rewards later to turn down rewards or self satisfaction in this life right now is a
denying of one's self, putting the reality of faith to the test.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Actually, the gospel (or good news) is needed because no one is able to abide by the rules perfectly and all the time.

According to Ezekiel, God would disagree the "good news" is required:

Ezekiel 18
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save hi ...[text shortened]... he son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

[/b]

Spell out why you think the scripture you quoted goes against what he wrote, I don't see
the conflict. During the OT times it was all about the Law, there was nothing else. Jesus
was pointing to the only hope we have in this life which is Jesus Christ, to truly follow Him
is to trust in all He has done for the reasons He did them. We are slaves to sin, in Christ
we are free, we are never good enough on our own.

Complaining about the gift and the rewards bestowed by God in response following Jesus could just be the "sour grapes" of those who come to realize there is no reward in living a godless life.

The quip "Oh you Jesus lovers are all just self centered and chasing rewards" could just be the talk of atheists old enough to face the fact that living without God has been a fruitless and an unthankful vanity of vanities.

So they comfort themselves with accusations against believers who have found "The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want" (Psalm 23:1)

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Christianity has drifted very far from what Jesus taught while He walked the Earth.

Indeed.

Now the Pope gives sermons on the evils of carbon emissions and tells people that they need to give more of their money to the state for redistribution and that women who have abortions will be forgiven .

Originally posted by KellyJay
Personally I think anything whose sole goal is to benefit man for man's sake is self
centered. Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

When we lift up Jesus Christ because of who He is and what He has done, and we do it
in th ...[text shortened]... on in this life right now is a
denying of one's self, putting the reality of faith to the test.

How about explaining this in a bit more detail, with some Bible references and/or examples maybe :

Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

Originally posted by Rajk999
How about explaining this in a bit more detail, with some Bible references and/or examples maybe :

Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

You need to be told we need to lift up Jesus so He can draw others to Him, and that we
need to take up our crosses and follow Him? You need to be told that Jesus died for all
of us, for sinners? I can give you scripture, but I would have thought you'd be aware of
these. Let me know I will without a doubt share the scriptures with you.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You need to be told we need to lift up Jesus so He can draw others to Him, and that we
need to take up our crosses and follow Him? You need to be told that Jesus died for all
of us, for sinners? I can give you scripture, but I would have thought you'd be aware of
these. Let me know I will without a doubt share the scriptures with you.

Well lets see ..

You started off with this
Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

And I asked for references and explanation. Now you say this:
You need to be told we need to lift up Jesus so He can draw others to Him, and that we
need to take up our crosses and follow Him? You need to be told that Jesus died for all
of us, for sinners?

You need to understand that not everyone went to your church. Most churches preach their own brand of Christianity. Hence the reason why I quote from the bible. The phrase 'lift up Jesus Christ' is not in the BIble. So maybe focus on that.

Remember that there is a differerence in what you call 'to know Christ' and what the Bible calls ' to know Christ'.

So im just trying to clarify your meaning.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well lets see ..

You started off with this
Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

And I asked for references and explanation. Now you say this:
[i]You need to be told we need to lift up Jesus so He can draw oth ...[text shortened]... rist' and what the Bible calls ' to know Christ'.

So im just trying to clarify your meaning.

I don't care what church you go to Jesus said that we need to lift Him up so that He would
draw all men unto Him. So unless you are suggesting only some churches do this over
others I don't see the conflict. Jesus said we need to lift Him up, so we need to lift Him up.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Where we can go wrong is that we pick and choose who we would share the gospel with
when Jesus died for all. There should never be those that are worthy in our eyes over the
blood of Jesus, He died for us all, so we need to share the gospel to all. We need to pick
up our crosses and follow Him. Those that do not do this are not worthy of Jesus, and that
too would be according to Jesus not my church.


Matthew 10:38
and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Mark 8:34
He called the crowd with his disciples, and said to them, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me.

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.

Luke 14:27
Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

If you are not following Jesus, you will not be His disciple. If you are not obeying Jesus
He is not your Lord. Your are to deny yourself and follow Him, this isn't a cheap gospel
where if you just do what you will, and say a few words at some point in your life you
get into heaven. It is a walk with Jesus, taking His yoke upon us and learning of Him. If
you do not have Jesus in your life, this would be difficult would it not?

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't care what church you go to Jesus said that we need to lift Him up so that He would
draw all men unto Him. So unless you are suggesting only some churches do this over
others I don't see the conflict. Jesus said we need to lift Him up, so we need to lift Him up.

John 12:32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to mysel ...[text shortened]... , and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

This is what Im speaking of. So lets recap.

You said this:
Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

and this
..Jesus said that we need to lift Him up so that He would draw all men unto Him

You quoted this:
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

That reference makes use of 'lifted up', but in a totally different way that you use it. Can you see that?

I am not interested in references where Christ says to follow him. I did not ask you to explain that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This is what Im speaking of. So lets recap.

You said this:
Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

and this
..Jesus said that we need to lift Him up so that He would draw all men unto Him

You quoted this: ...[text shortened]... not interested in references where Christ says to follow him. I did not ask you to explain that.

I see it as I explained it, He was lifted up on a cross, and He should be lifted up in our
lives. Since He died for us all, there is no one that we should think is beyond His love and
mercy. Since He did die for us as He did all others we should never think we are above
anyone who He did that for, so we should share the gospel not for anyone's sake but
Jesus' He is the only one worthy. We should not treat any sin as beyond the grace and
mercy of Jesus Christ, He is the judge not us. We need to obey Him not our own desires
and lusts, lifting ourselves up to be the judges of this world.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This is what Im speaking of. So lets recap.

You said this:
Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

and this
..Jesus said that we need to lift Him up so that He would draw all men unto Him

You quoted this: ...[text shortened]... not interested in references where Christ says to follow him. I did not ask you to explain that.

I get you are not interested in following Christ by some of our other conversations.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Well lets see ..

You started off with this
Christianity which we lift up Jesus Christ for His sake over other's sake, over
our own is one where self is actually shunned, where loving one's self gets in the way.

And I asked for references and explanation. Now you say this:
[i]You need to be told we need to lift up Jesus so He can draw oth ...[text shortened]... rist' and what the Bible calls ' to know Christ'.

So im just trying to clarify your meaning.

Again, this kind of thing is what happens when people "lean to their own understanding".