Morality without a deity.

@fmf said
I don't think "a well done to humanity" is what is being sought. Yes, there is "murder, rape, abuse large and small" and humans do these things. How does this affect the fact that moral codes and moral compasses evolved because humans are social creatures, and how does the fact there is "murder, rape, abuse large and small" prove, in your mind, that a deity exists or that a deity is necessary for there to be morality?

With God those things are totally evil, there is no, those are just natural human activities at play.

@fmf said
KellyKay, I'd still be interested in your answers to my two questions earlier on this page (5th and 6th posts).

I can only offer opinions.

@kellyjay said
With God those things are totally evil, there is no, those are just natural human activities at play.

The notion of "evil" exists without "God" too. Is it only your belief in your God that stops you from engaging in "murder, rape, abuse large and small" or in perceiving "murder, rape, abuse large and small" as being morally unsound?

@kellyjay said
I can only offer opinions.

FMF: "KellyKay, I'd still be interested in your answers to my two questions earlier on this page (5th and 6th posts)."

KellyJay: "I can only offer opinions."'

Then please do. Stuff pulled from the web about Pol Pot etc. misses the point of my two posts.

It would be interesting - for the conversation - if you engaged rather than think that your tangent [which I have addressed nevertheless] has dealt with what I put to you ~ which, in the interests of that discussion ~ was a direct and focussed response to what you posted, by the way.

@kellyjay said
No, but apparently taking the answer given to you is.

Which answer?
Your answers are contradictory which is why I have asked for clarification.
Come on ... why are you scared?
4 questions.
Each Y or N.

@fmf said
The notion of "evil" exists without "God" too. Is it only your belief in your God that stops you from engaging in "murder, rape, abuse large and small" or in perceiving "murder, rape, abuse large and small" as being morally unsound?

Not the way you describe morals, each take their own path, all compasses point in every direction. Then no pathway is any different from anyone else.

@wolfgang59 said
Which answer?
Your answers are contradictory which is why I have asked for clarification.
Come on ... why are you scared?
4 questions.
Each Y or N.

I told you to pick one! You put my answers into your questions. Nothing about you scares me. You look at what you want, you see what you want, and refuse to consider opinions that don’t fit your beliefs.

@fmf said
FMF: "KellyKay, I'd still be interested in your answers to my two questions earlier on this page (5th and 6th posts)."

KellyJay: "I can only offer opinions."'

Then please do. Stuff pulled from the web about Pol Pot etc. misses the point of my two posts.

It would be interesting - for the conversation - if you engaged rather than think that your tangent [which I ha ...[text shortened]... he interests of that discussion ~ was a direct and focussed response to what you posted, by the way.

It is not in the least bit interesting to me.

@kellyjay said
Not the way you describe morals, each take their own path, all compasses point in every direction. Then no pathway is any different from anyone else.

I've talked about how religion, culture, society, community, neighbourhood and family mould moral values and norms.

I didn't say everyone "takes their own path" ~ if I did, quote me, but don't bother looking because I didn't describe it like that ~ and nor have I said "all compasses point in every direction". Everyone lives a unique life and navigates as a unique human being and not as a drone or mindless lifeform ~ but millions of people take a similar path within the human environments they live in.

If you think I explained it that as "all compasses point in every direction", quote me. But don't bother looking for the quote - you are either mistaken or you are being disingenuous - because I didn't say any such thing.

And I have not said that "no pathway is any different from anyone else". Again, don't bother looking for the quote to back up what you are attributing to me, because we both know you are just making it up.

We all have a unique moral compass - formed by our unique hard-wiring - personhood - and unique experience - and we use that compass to guide us in our societies, communities, workplaces, neighbourhoods and families via the norms and values that we subscribe to or chafe against in those human environments.

These norms and values are both external to us and also internalized by us. That internalization is a unique process in each and every one of us, this does not mean it does not contribute to or participate in conformity and uniformity across a group.

Stop trying to paraphrase me in order to disagree with YOUR paraphrased version of what I say. I am a far better writer than you; I am far better at expressing myself than you are. I write articulate and relatively cogent posts.

Address what I actually say and stop fabricating self-serving versions of what I say in order to prattle on in a way that sidesteps or misrepresents my stance.

@kellyjay said
It is not in the least bit interesting to me.

Don't run away from the conversation, KellyJay.

@kellyjay said
With God those things are totally evil, there is no, those are just natural human activities at play.

In the sweep of human history, do you have any examples of societies that evolved into systems that "endorsed any type of crime against" its own members and, as a consequence, prospered or survived for any significant amounts of time in human history?

Did Ravi Zacharias give you examples of cultures where people eat their neighbours "because they like them" which, in the sweep of human history, not only survived but also prevailed in the face of cultures that drew their strength from moral codes where people did not eat their neighbours "because they like them"?

@fmf said
Don't run away from the conversation, KellyJay.

Thank you for your opinion.

@kellyjay said
Thank you for your opinion.

You are running away - from one page to the next - from my direct on-topic responses to what you presented to me for me to respond to.

Why do you end up in this discursive foetal position on so many threads?

@wolfgang59 said
Which answer?
Your answers are contradictory which is why I have asked for clarification.
Come on ... why are you scared?
4 questions.
Each Y or N.

My answers are not contradictory, if so show me.
You have my statements show the contradictions.

@kellyjay said
If evolutionary processes are all there is, if there is no God, that would eliminate every cause for all human atrocities except humanity. Each murder, rape, abuse large and small are all products human evolution, you think a well done to humanity is in order?

Let's dissect what you are saying to me a bit.

Observation #1: Humans are responsible for - and the cause of - all human atrocities, regardless of "if there is no God" or "if there is a God". Do you agree?

Observation #2: "If there is a God", as you believe there is, what then? What would be "every cause for all human atrocities" be in that case? I am engaging what you said in your post. Your response?