Morality without a deity.

@kellyjay said
Sure, if you believe God when He became a man He told us what is to come after we die. There is an appointed time for each of us to die and after that judgment.

I have no reason to believe there is a "judgement". I believe we just die.

@kellyjay said
They are removed with Darwin, there are no real standards for right and wrong. All of our moral imperatives become based upon human whims which are so fickle they can change from moment to moment. All compasses point where ever people want them to, there isn't anything to suggest this one is better than the next.

I accept that you believe all this stuff because of your religion. One thing I think we can agree on is that there certainly can be morality without a deity, even if you base your own morality around your notion that there is a deity.

@kellyjay said
I believe there is a moral law giver, that we all are aware of this and it isn't a man made law either or we could just turn it off whenever we wanted.

"There is a moral lawgiver"? Well, your belief that "we are all aware of this" is a mistake. Not a good start for you. Your beliefs are - I'd say - riddled with mistakes of this kind about your fellow humans. Your riffing about cockroaches makes you sound silly.

If there is a "moral lawgiver" then I can only think that such "morals" are part of our hard wiring, as I have mentioned many times before. I am not aware of any credible "revelation" or explicit itemization of what those morals are, and that's after having had a good hard look at several religions.

And no, I don't subscribe to ancient Hebrew mythology or to the cult of personality constructed around Jesus, so you can save your breath.

@kellyjay said
Then there are personal things that for me are meaningful, if I shared with you not so much, since they are my experiences not yours.

"Personal things that are meaningful" are not evidence for your God though. Otherwise, "personal things that are meaningful" to people of all religions would be evidence for the existence of all Gods.

@kellyjay said
While having God be the first cause logically answers unanswerable questions man has about the beginning, there is nothing that rivals it in my opinion.

All you have got is your opinion about what rivals what.

You and others here when asked where did everything come from honestly said, you don't know.

Well you too have conceded
honestly that none of us "know" and the best we can do is speculate, right?

@fmf said
All you have got is your opinion about what rivals what.

You and others here when asked where did everything come from honestly said, you don't know.

Well you too have conceded
honestly that none of us "know" and the best we can do is speculate, right?

There isn't even a viable option outside of God that doesn't have major issues. If you were looking for supernatural evidence, the whole universe is evidence.

@kellyjay said
That isn't the case, the world, scripture, morals, and so on line up making the God of the Bible very believable. Much of the so called 'evidence' for something other than God creating the universe are 'just so' stories, nothing that can even be logically proofed.

Well it's all well and good that you find it believable. But do you ever ponder why, within the confines of your religious tradition, your God/ideology did not give you something to talk about that all people can find believable rather than what you do have which is something that you concede cannot be proved?

@fmf said
Well it's all well and good that you find it believable. But do you ever ponder why, within the confines of your religious tradition, your God/ideology did not give you something to talk about that all people can find believable rather than what you do have which is something that you concede cannot be proved?

You have something to put up against it as a viable option?

@kellyjay said
There isn't even a viable option outside of God that doesn't have major issues. If you were looking for supernatural evidence, the whole universe is evidence.

You are entitled to believe what you want about what is or isn't "viable". Nevertheless, there clearly is morality without belief in a deity and I think Ghost of a Duke's OP makes a good case as to why.

@kellyjay said
If you were looking for supernatural evidence, the whole universe is evidence.

Yes it's the best yours and other religions have. I accept that.

@kellyjay said
You have something to put up against it as a viable option?

Yes. All the stuff I have been talking to you about with regard to morality on this thread and on several other threads in January, February and March of this year. Every claim I make, every observation I make, every answer I give, every belief I express, is "viable" as far as I am concerned.

@kellyjay said
I believe there is a moral law giver, that we all are aware of this and it isn't a man made law either or we could just turn it off whenever we wanted.

If there is a creator who is in some sense a "moral lawgiver" then I can only think that such "morals" are unstalled in my hard wiring. If this is so, my moral compass and its content is evidence of it. In the absence of any explicit instructions or promises or rewards communicated by such a creator, that hard wiring [and how our hard wirings interrelate at the communal level] is all we have to go on with regard to how to best live our lives.

@fmf said
You are entitled to believe what you want about what is or isn't "viable". Nevertheless, there clearly is morality without belief in a deity and I think Ghost of a Duke's OP makes a good case as to why.

So what is used to determine what is a good moral? Someone who is willing to cooperate with another, to do some work like help change a tire, kidnap a child, feed the hungry, rob the elderly, help a child with their home work. Who is to say something is good or something is bad that we can clearly know what is a good moral or bad? Do you even believe in good morals and bad?

@fmf said
Yes. All the stuff I have been talking to you about with regard to morality on this thread and on several other threads in January, February and March of this year. Every claim I make, every observation I make, every answer I give, every belief I express, is "viable" as far as I am concerned.

I'm sure whenever some group of people rob another they too believe their actions are also viable as far as they are concern. When you are your own judge and jury how often to you condemn yourself if you can come up with some excuse to do what you want?

@kellyjay said
So what is used to determine what is a good moral? Someone who is willing to cooperate with another, to do some work like help change a tire, kidnap a child, feed the hungry, rob the elderly, help a child with their home work. Who is to say something is good or something is bad that we can clearly know what is a good moral or bad?

Each of us can use our moral compass to make our decisions as to how to act and what to make of each other's decisions and actions.

You, for example, can look at me, or any other atheist, or a fellow Christian, or a Muslim, or someone having sexual intercourse outside marriage, or a 'practising' homosexual, or a greedy person, or an anti-social person, or a president like the one your country has, or someone terminating a pregnancy, or someone avoiding tax, or someone using foul language, and use your moral compass - and the prism of your religion - to evaluate what is good and bad.