Originally posted by Conrau KNot talking about her suffering. And I am not talking about mental torment. I'm talking about how she saw the actual suffering of the poor as a way to get closer to a God she spent herself spent part of her life not believing in.
Well, no not really. Her crisis of faith is what the theology of suffering entails.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_dryness
To a Catholic at least, 'being closer to Jesus' does not at all mean 'being happy, content or satisfied'.
Originally posted by galveston75Just more propaganda. Christ is the true God, Savior, Creator, Lord, and King.
My father in law that past away many years ago was a Baptist preacher for many years. He too lost his faith. My wife asked him when that happened, why and which was about the same time she began to study with the JW's.
So she asked why and why he never used the name of God which is Jehovah in his sermons?
He said he knew that Jehovah was God's name ...[text shortened]... ave their ears tickled with the easy and smooth sounding stuff.
How incredibly sad..........
Originally posted by FMFShe should have known from reading the Holy Bible that we do not work our way to Heaven. There must be belief and faith is Christ as our Lord and Savior.
Not talking about her suffering. And I am not talking about mental torment. I'm talking about how she saw the actual suffering of the poor as a way to get closer to a God she spent herself spent part of her life not believing in.
Originally posted by FMFI don't believe she spent apart of her life not believing. Her diaries reveal she had doubts, crises of faith, an absence of fervour, but there is nothing to suggest that she disbelieved in the Catholic faith and duplicitously continued to promote the faith to others. Her diaries are not, as far as I can see, substantially different from that of St Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross or Therese of Lisieux who all experienced doubt but, to different extents, provided spiritual direction to others and promoted faith.
Not talking about her suffering. And I am not talking about mental torment. I'm talking about how she saw the actual suffering of the poor as a way to get closer to a God she spent herself spent part of her life not believing in.
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Originally posted by Bosse de NagePrecisely. This kind of language is fairly typical of Catholic spiritualism and it's in this context that Mother Teresa's comments ought to be read. I don't think her diaries show her to be a private atheist but public proselytiser.
No worst, there is none. Pitched past pitch of grief,
More pangs will, schooled at forepangs, wilder wring.
Comforter, where, where is your comforting?
Mary, mother of us, where is your relief?
My cries heave, herds-long; huddle in a main, a chief
Woe, wórld-sorrow; on an áge-old anvil wince and sing —
Then lull, then leave off. Fury had shrieked a whirlwind: all
Life death does end and each day dies with sleep.
Gerard Manley Hopkins
Originally posted by SwissGambitMany people think they are Christian because they were born into it, or they
This would be easier if people would read the links. Particularly the first one. 😞
These people thought that they had the call of God on their lives. They went into the ministry with enthusiasm, only to have their faith deteriorate.
are faithful church goers. Neither of those things are what makes someone
a Christian, so if all being a Christain is, is being a social being in that you
belong to some group then when something real in life comes along they will
find that it isn't enough and they quit what they thought was the faith, when
in fact they never had to begin with.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayI'm pretty sure that's false.
Many people think they are Christian because they were born into it, or they
are faithful church goers. Neither of those things are what makes someone
a Christian, so if all being a Christain is, is being a social being in that you
belong to some group then when something real in life comes along they will
find that it isn't enough and they quit what they thought was the faith, when
in fact they never had to begin with.
Kelly
I wasn't just a church-goer or just a 'religious baby' - I actually believed that God existed and that I needed to be saved through Jesus. I prayed the prayer and meant it. I lived as uprightly as I could. I was willing to stick up for my faith and debate people even at risk of harm to myself at times [when I condemned the catholic church, the catholic kids almost beat me up over it, for example...] At my first real job, a co-worker paid me the complement 'of all the Christians I've met, you are the only one who takes it seriously'.
The whole 'if you lose it, you never had it' argument is BS and was only invented to get believers out of the once-saved-always-saved vs. lose-able salvation doctrinal argument. It allows one to support OSAS without conceding the ugly implications brought up by the other side. [For example, that a person can be 'saved' and later do the most horrible things without losing it.]
However, it also useful in boosting the false confidence of believers. If they admit that their faith is not strong enough to attract people for life, they might have to admit the disconcerting possibility that they, too will lose their faith someday. It's much more re-assuring to say that the apostate never had any real faith to begin with.
Originally posted by SwissGambitThe Holy Bible says one must endure to the end to be saved. So how can one be saved before he endures to the end? It is Christ that saves and he will do that when He returns. Then, once saved, always saved becomes true, but not until then. We only have that hope now. None of us are REALLY saved now, but we can have an assurance of salvation to come. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
I'm pretty sure that's false.
I wasn't [b]just a church-goer or just a 'religious baby' - I actually believed that God existed and that I needed to be saved through Jesus. I prayed the prayer and meant it. I lived as uprightly as I could. I was willing to stick up for my faith and debate people even at risk of harm to myself at times [when ...[text shortened]... h more re-assuring to say that the apostate never had any real faith to begin with.[/b]
Originally posted by RJHindsOK, but this is quite different from the position Kelly is taking.
The Holy Bible says one must endure to the end to be saved. So how can one be saved before he endures to the end? It is Christ that saves and he will do that when He returns. Then, once saved, always saved becomes true, but not until then. We only have that hope now. None of us are REALLY saved now, but we can have an assurance of salvation to come. HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Originally posted by SwissGambitThe reason there are so many denominations is due to the teachings of different people who understand what is written in the Holy Bible in different ways. It would be nice if we all knew the truth and could agree, however, that is not the way it is in the real world. I can only present the way I understand it and you have the choice to agree or disagree. That is part of life.
OK, but this is quite different from the position Kelly is taking.
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Originally posted by SwissGambitIt isn't a once saved always saved argument, its a never been saved argument.
I'm pretty sure that's false.
I wasn't [b]just a church-goer or just a 'religious baby' - I actually believed that God existed and that I needed to be saved through Jesus. I prayed the prayer and meant it. I lived as uprightly as I could. I was willing to stick up for my faith and debate people even at risk of harm to myself at times [when h more re-assuring to say that the apostate never had any real faith to begin with.[/b]
I don't care what you (DID) to be a Christian, it never has been about what you
(do) if that is all you got than you've missed the boat big time. It is a relationship
with God through Jesus Christ, either you have one or you don't. Works are a part
of it, but it is the cart following the horse.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayDid Jesus turn down my request for a relationship?
It isn't a once saved always saved argument, its a never been saved argument.
I don't care what you (DID) to be a Christian, it never has been about what you
(do) if that is all you got than you've missed the boat big time. It is a relationship
with God through Jesus Christ, either you have one or you don't. Works are a part
of it, but it is the cart following the horse.
Kelly