Natural causes instead of unnatural

@kellyjay said
What’s your goal?

My goal is to engage you in conversation about this topic and explore the difference between out perspectives.

@kellyjay said
If you are not able to tell the difference between an act of will and intelligence and the normal unfolding due to the laws we see in the universe.

Do you mean "will" and "intelligence" in the human sense? As in, within the confines of the human "mind"?

@kellyjay said
Well use little words, small sentences, because as far as I am concerned nothing about anything you have said addressed my query.

Everything on my side of this "conversation" has addressed your query from a perspective that seems to incapacitate your ability - or willingness - to converse with me with integrity. Why do you need "little words"? My writing is cogent and concise.

@kellyjay said
Well use little words, small sentences.

This one is from five pages ago: still being blanked out by you.

When you say "mind", do you mean like a human mind? And when you ask if an entity is "mindless", are you asking if it is non-human? And whether it has a human mind? Did you get your idea that the entity that might have caused the universe is a kind of humanoid from the ancient Hebrews?

Average word length: 4 letters
Average sentence length: 14 words

Totally on-topic.

You have no excuse.

@fmf said
Do you mean "will" and "intelligence" in the human sense? As in, within the confines of the human "mind"?

When I say will and mind those words do not necessarily mean human. If you think will and mind are confined to humanity, you will have to explain that. You are aware of things like listening into space for sound that is not just something like background noise. You can tell the difference between wind blowing and birdsongs 🦅, a random placement of rocks and when they are placed spelling out words, or when instructions are given or coded in something directing actions with cause?

@kellyjay said
When I say will and mind those words do not necessarily mean human.

Well, I cannot say how a non-human entity functions, and I don't see the justification for projecting onto it the human attributes that you seek to.

@kellyjay said
If you think will and mind are confined to humanity, you will have to explain that.

We know nothing at all about the "will and mind", even assuming these terms are applicable, of an extra-terrestrial non-human entity.

@fmf said
Well, I cannot say how a non-human entity functions, and I don't see the justification for projecting onto it the human attributes that you seek to.

Do you think will and intelligence are limited to humans?

@kellyjay said
You can tell the difference between wind blowing and birdsongs 🦅, a random placement of rocks and when they are placed spelling out words, or when instructions are given or coded in something directing actions with cause?

It's a mystery, as we both know . I am willing to say that there might be some kind of creator entity and that its nature may well be something akin to the "laws" of physics and chemistry. But I don't see any reason to assume it has human characteristics.

@fmf said
It's a mystery, as we both know . I am willing to say that there might be some kind of creator entity and that its nature may well be something akin to the "laws" of physics and chemistry. But I don't see any reason to assume it has human characteristics.

My question didn't bring up a creator entity, it centered on the one thing you have
not addressed, which has been repeated to you over and over. Clearly, you don't
know, don't care, and why you are still in this thread is a mystery.

@kellyjay said
Do you think will and intelligence are limited to humans?

I don't see how or why the human "intelligence" that you perceive needs to be projected onto a non-human entity.

You have conceded that it was the Bible that made you a young Earth creationist and not speculating about the cosmos and its origins.

So, in other words, you have conceded that you are working backwards from the Bible account in order to make assertions about the cosmos and its origins.

This is why, ideologically, you feel compelled to anthropomorphize the entity that might have caused the universe by talking about "love" and "care" and "success and failure" and "mercy" and "mind" and "intelligence" and "purpose" etc.

@kellyjay said
My question didn't bring up a creator entity.

If you are now - on page 11, all of a sudden - claiming that this thread is somehow NOT about the nature of a creator entity and the universe, then all I can ask is: why can't you converse in good faith?

@fmf said
If you are now - on page 11, all of a sudden - claiming that this thread is somehow NOT about the nature of a creator entity and the universe, then all I can ask is: why can't you converse in good faith?

This a simple question you have been avoiding, when I said mind and mindlessness
it was not aimed at humans, or anything else, the whole point was can you tell if
something done required a mind behind it or not, you obviously cannot even see
the question because you are fixated on a creator. Obviously, you are not reading
the words said to you, you instead are out to disagree with a point that wasn't
even being made by me here.

@kellyjay said
Gee wiz, mind, mindlessness, not "anthropomorphization".

The concept of anthropomorphization lies at the very heart of your disingenuous/false-dilemma framing of this mystery.

I have no reason to believe that a creator entity, if there is one, is some kind of humanoid life that has human attributes such as intentions, needs, aspirations and emotions.

So, with your parochial riffing on "mindlessness" you are engaging in a kind of absurd reductionism. I deduce that this is in the service of your Abrahamic "Man was made in God's image" dogma, blatantly so.

You try to NOT mention it ~ the way the "Creator" is framed in the Book of Genesis ~ but every now and then you do. You can't help yourself. And then you scuttle away pretending it has nothing to do with it [for you].

I have no reason whatsoever to assume that the entity that is the cause of the universe, is anything other than non-human. So your "mind" versus "mindlessness" dichotomy doesn't work. You are juggling just one idea and it's an idea driven by your religionism.

In the context of the staggeringly profound nature of this mystery, you coughing up your "mind" versus "mindlessness" dichotomy/rhetorical device over and over and over and over again eventually comes across as nothing more or less than dogmatic prattle.

If you insist that YOUR anthropomorphization is off-topic, then you are simply demonstrating that you are getting intellectually incapacitated by the disagreement of someone who does not share your beliefs.

@kellyjay said
This a simple question you have been avoiding, when I said mind and mindlessness
it was not aimed at humans, or anything else, the whole point was can you tell if
something done required a mind behind it or not, you obviously cannot even see
the question because you are fixated on a creator.

Why won't you address anything I am saying? There's little or no evidence that you are reading my posts or, if you are, there's no sign that you understand what it is I am putting to you.