06 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou especially like
tis quite interesting, I especially like the part about inner peacefulness, for to be sure, the waters must be calm so that the reflection can be clearly perceived, when there is turbulence, the waters are disturbed and the reflection distorted. 🙂
a projection of your own mind
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06 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by black beetlethe process of reflection is paramount me thinks, for any kind of understanding, we live in an age with more media than ever before, the admonishment to 'buy out time', for reflection is of the utmost importance, otherwise we become like a twig carried here and here by the stream, we cannot perceive the beauties of the riverbank when the stream is in torrent, best to find a little eddy and to focus ones direction, this is different from a projection me thinks 🙂
You especially like
a projection of your own mind
😵
06 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo! In the context of our discussion and in the context of the essense of your OP, these thoughts of yours, too, are nothing but a projection of your own mind; this projection is a product of yours, it is merely a concept you created by means of using your 6 senses alone, therefore it is empty (relative/ empty of own being/ empty of the Ultimate Absolute Truth that stands beyond Names). You cannot get satori if you are hooked on dualism, that is.
the process of reflection is paramount me thinks, for any kind of understanding, we live in an age with more media than ever before, the admonishment to 'buy out time', for reflection is of the utmost importance, otherwise we become like a twig carried here and here by the stream, we cannot perceive the beauties of the riverbank when the stream is in ...[text shortened]... nd a little eddy and to focus ones direction, this is different from a projection me thinks 🙂
Satori to the Zen Buddhism is an instant penetration of the veil of the phenomena that they produce the events that are taking place in the Floating World; the conceptual awareness of the practitioner (in our case: your concept that took shape by means of your OP and of your post to which I now reply) is cancelled by the sharp non-conceptual awareness (Zen) of the practitioner, and so the practitioner breaks free from his dualist approach.
The non-conceptual awareness of the practitioner has a single simple result that it is then applied constantly in everything he perceives and in every phenomenon of the Floating World: there are two realities (Two Truths). The first is the reality of the Floating World, which is empty of inherent existence although it is as real as it gets. The second reality is the reality of the "Ultimate Absolute Truth that stands above the Names", which is empty of everything but of itself!
Right now, due to the fact that I use words in order to communicate with you, I don't proceed by means of pure conduct -and you "have" to overcome your desire to either agree or to disagree with me, because, since my words are empty, they must not be understood neither as means used in order to discard nor as means used in order to corroborate the so called "absolute truth". My empty words are merely a kind of skilfull means.
Therefore, to the practitioner of Zen Buddhism, your OP shows clearly that you are hooked on dualism. The immediate answer that you would get during a live conversation after your OP, with a typical Mahayana monk, it would be probably:
-- “If someone sees the one of proper enlightenment as liberated and free from all outflows, and as not being attached to all worlds, that person still has not certified to the Way. If someone knows the Thus Come One’s body and marks do not exist, and cultivates and attains this understanding, then that person will quickly become a Buddha.”
However a Zen Buddhism master would hit your head in no time, or he would scream at your face so loud that you would remain deaf for two-three days, or he would remain silent as if you were non-existent. These are the most common ways the Zen masters are using in order to make you "Stop Creating Constantly The Chains That Keep You Imprisoned In The Dualism"
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06 Dec 10
Originally posted by black beetlebut these thoughts dear beetle are the product of a process of reflection, of thinking of the past and mistakes that have been made, of trying to rectify them at present so as to shape the future in some positive way. It is not in anyway an attempt at transcendence, nor really an attempt to understand self, although perhaps subconsciously that's what may be happening but its certainly not a conscious attempt, but its simply a process for trying to find solutions, to apply that knowledge so as to act wisely.
No! In the context of our discussion and in the context of the essense of your OP, these thoughts of yours, too, are nothing but a projection of your own mind; this projection is a product of yours, it is merely a concept you created by means of using your 6 senses alone, therefore it is empty (relative/ empty of own being/ empty of the Ultimate Absolut ...[text shortened]... e you "Stop Creating Constantly The Chains That Keep You Imprisoned In The Dualism"
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Strangely this appears to me to not be spiritual at all, for the concerns are not for the attainment of any special kind of understanding or self realisation, but of simply living.
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieEvery thought -regardless of its content- is a product of the interaction of the individual with her/ his environment, therefore they are empty/ relative and, thus, separated from the Ultimate Reality. The thoughts and the acts, in the context of Zen Buddhism, can merely cause restricted karmic rewards due to the fact that they are “...relative like the shadow that follows the body”. According to the Patriarch Way, grace is caused by the:
but these thoughts dear beetle are the product of a process of reflection, of thinking of the past and mistakes that have been made, of trying to rectify them at present so as to shape the future in some positive way. It is not in anyway an attempt at transcendence, nor really an attempt to understand self, although perhaps subconsciously that's wha ...[text shortened]... the attainment of any special kind of understanding or self realisation, but of simply living.
-- “...pure conduct and the enlightenment (of the individual), where (the individual knows that) the body and the self are empty. This kind of grace cannot be achieved in this world (it cannot be achieved if the practitioner is entrapped by means of her/ his actions and her/ his thoughts in the Floating World) ”, told Bodhidharma to the Emperor, who had just ask him what kind of grace he would earn thanks to his innumerable good deeds.
-- “What is the first principle of holiness?”, asked then the Emperor.
-- “ (There is only) Vast emptiness, nothing holy”
-- “Who is the one who stands now in front of me?”, pressed the Emperor.
-- “I don't know”, replied Bodhidharma.
Bodhidharma, in order to help the Emperor to get his satori, explained to him clearly that all the wise and good acts that the Emperor has done were praiseworthy solely in the context of his moral purity and, as such, they would be rewarded with the trivial (in comparison to the enlightenment) gift of his reincarnation in one of the Heavenly Worlds. However, these thoughts and actions, no matter how many will be conducted by the individual, they cannot cause on their own the enlightenment of the individual. Of course, this doesn't mean that the individual must not conduct good thoughts and actions, for, on the other hand, the moral purity is necessary for the achievement of the enlightenment. This exact moral purity, in conjunction with the non-conceptual awareness, create the basis for the satori, a specific state where the phenomena of the Floating World and the existence of the ego are immediately recognised as “empty of own being”.
Therefore, it is clear that the grace required for the enlightenment does not draw its origins out of the “good work” alone but also out of the constant conceptual and non-conceptual awareness. That exact level of being, which is empty of every nature but full of its own nature, is the unconditioned reality (the Ultimate Reality that stands above all the Names), and within that unconditioned reality there is no dualism; since the discrimination between “this” and “that” and, thus, the discrimination between the “Emperor” and “Bodhidharma” is a delusion, Bodhidharma told the Emperor when he asked him to unveil his identity that he simply didn’t know who was he
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Edit: "Strangely this appears to me to not be spiritual at all, for the concerns are not for the attainment of any special kind of understanding or self realisation, but of simply living."
The mind of the Emperor was not trained, so he missed the chance to get his satori
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07 Dec 10
3 edits
Originally posted by black beetlethis is all very good and fine dear beetle, i think that in some strange way we can agree, that acts of good deeds and moral purity are relative only within the context of themselves and produce no reward other than that which you have stated, a kind of karmic reward, this principle is also a Biblical one, 'what you are measuring out to others will be measured out to you', which comes about through right thought and action, which is cultivated by thinking on virtuous and praiseworthy things. Is it not similar to the Koans of Zen?
Every thought -regardless of its content- is a product of the interaction of the individual with her/ his environment, therefore they are empty/ relative and, thus, separated from the Ultimate Reality. The thoughts and the acts, in the context of Zen Buddhism, can merely cause restricted karmic rewards due to the fact that they are “...relative like the ."
The mind of the Emperor was not trained, so he missed the chance to get his satori
😵
The main difference that i foresee is in the aspirations, for you are aware that Christianity, in its simplest and purest form is not an endeavour for self, but for others, ultimately through self sacrifice, usually in deeds, not that these are an end in themselves, but a manifestation of correct thought and deed in a purely practical way, thus the idea of holiness, is kind of like the ancient Greek idea of virtue that i read in my youth, a sanctification or a setting aside for a specific purpose, thus the cow is virtuous if it gives good milk, the knife it it cuts well, the Christian if he or she is able to help others.
I do have a question though that i would like to ask of the aspiration, is it a kind of oneness, this ultimate reality, or a nothingness, or both or neither? I apologise for i really have read your text five or six times and yet it evades me, perhaps if you used simpler language i could grasp it or perhaps its simply beyond me 🙁
07 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieEdit: “this is all... ...a kind of karmic reward”
this is all very good and fine dear beetle, i think that in some strange way we can agree, that acts of good deeds and moral purity are relative only within the context of themselves and produce no reward other than that which you have stated, a kind of karmic reward, this principle is also a Biblical one, 'what you are measuring out to others will b ...[text shortened]... s me, perhaps if you used simpler language i could grasp it or perhaps its simply beyond me 🙁
We agree over that;
Edit: “this principle is also a Biblical one, 'what you are measuring out to others will be measured out to you', which comes about through right thought and action, which is cultivated by thinking on virtuous and praiseworthy things. Is it not similar to the Koans of Zen?”
It is indeed both similar and not similar to the Koan Zen tradition. According to Mumonkan, Case 3, Gutei was raising his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy attendant began to imitate him in this way, and whenever anyone asked the boy what his master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger. When Gutei heard this, he seized the boy and cut off his finger. When the boy cried and ran away, Gutei called him, and when the boy turned his head to Gutei, Gutei raised up his own finger. That instant the boy was enlightened.
Over here, Mumon says that the enlightenment which Gutei and the boy attained, has nothing to do with a finger;
Edit: “The main difference... ...if he or she is able to help others.
We agree. However, since in the context of Koan Zen “holy” is considered the person who acts identically the way s/he is asking from the others to behave, holiness is empty of own being and thus the holiness is not existent in the realm of the unconditioned reality;
Edit: “I do have... ...simply beyond me”
It is not at all your fault that you cannot understand, because the old koans were applied in the monasteries by master monks who wanted to promote the understanding of their student monks -and the students were meditating for years over specific sutras before receiving their personal koan. In fact, each koan was designed in correspondence to the holistic education, abilities and knowledge of the student; each koan looks different than any other solely to the practitioners that lack of the flexibility that would allow them to see directly towards the unconditioned reality. Therefore, whoever is not well versed in the zennist tradition, s/he has the feeling that “the Buddhists are talking in tongues”, as our twhitehead told me in the past, or that all these koans are “profound nonsense”, as our barr told me some weeks ago😵
Well, my trusty feer rabbie, there is no such a thing as “aspiration”. There is solely a direct understanding of the nature of the Floating World and a direct understanding of the unconditioned reality -these simultaneous understandings are the “parts” of the well known satori. But satori is merely the stepping stone: when satori become the basis of the knowledge of the “enlightened beings” at every given moment of their conceptual and non-conceptual awareness, these “enlightened persons” have indeed enforced their Two Visions ability (another way of describing the Two Truths) and they have the power to keep their new point of attention focused fully on their knowledge (regarding the Two Truths). So, enlightenment is merely a permanent change of one’s point of attention and of the constant conceptual and non-conceptual awareness of the individual regarding the nature of every phenomenon and of the nature of the realm of the existence where the phenomena do not arise at all. This is the reason why “at first the mountains are mountains (in the Floating World), then the mountains are not mountains (because they are empty of inherent existence and thus they are non-existent in the realm of the unconditioned reality), and finally the mountains are mountains again (because the individual has not yet left behind his humanhood; buddhahood illuminates the humanhood and vice-versa) ”. Therefore, how could ever such an enlightened person envelop holiness as it is understood by the Christian tradition?
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07 Dec 10
Originally posted by black beetleyes its true, these ideas and concepts are completely alien, although i do find it quite interesting myself, hopefully in the future i can gain a little more insight into the Zen workings, for I do like to read the koans myself and have always been interested in eastern culture, principally through martial arts when i was younger. Indeed if i was not a practising Christian, i think i would embrace Buddhism 🙂
Edit: “this is all... ...a kind of karmic reward”
We agree over that;
Edit: “this principle is also a Biblical one, 'what you are measuring out to others will be measured out to you', which comes about through right thought and action, which is cultivated by thinking on virtuous and praiseworthy things. Is it not similar to the Koans of Zen?” ...[text shortened]... uch an enlightened person envelop holiness as it is understood by the Christian tradition?
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08 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo good to her someone that can articulate their faith so simply.
yes its true, these ideas and concepts are completely alien, although i do find it quite interesting myself, hopefully in the future i can gain a little more insight into the Zen workings, for I do like to read the koans myself and have always been interested in eastern culture, principally through martial arts when i was younger. Indeed if i was not a practising Christian, i think i would embrace Buddhism 🙂
Yuo would think this kind of thought process would be easy to convey to others, but alas, as you have probably seen yourself, its so hard to get people to just simply expouse what they believe in-even though they will go black and blue telling us how right it is.
(How right what is? 🙄 )
08 Dec 10
Originally posted by black beetlePossibly through the traditions of Gnostic Christianity?
Edit: “this is all... ...a kind of karmic reward”
We agree over that;
Edit: “this principle is also a Biblical one, 'what you are measuring out to others will be measured out to you', which comes about through right thought and action, which is cultivated by thinking on virtuous and praiseworthy things. Is it not similar to the Koans of Zen?” ...[text shortened]... uch an enlightened person envelop holiness as it is understood by the Christian tradition?
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08 Dec 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOh, so many words! And so many bothering concepts behind them!
yes its true, these ideas and concepts are completely alien, although i do find it quite interesting myself, hopefully in the future i can gain a little more insight into the Zen workings, for I do like to read the koans myself and have always been interested in eastern culture, principally through martial arts when i was younger. Indeed if i was not a practising Christian, i think i would embrace Buddhism 🙂
Robbie, old dear, be a Christian with whatever beliefs. If we argue those, we are just playing at the level of such things. (If I call myself a Zennist, it is only for that purpose; I may have beliefs, but those beliefs are provisional and relative.) The clarity that brings serenity is before all that. But because we get so caught up in all that, we have a tendency to mistrust that which is simply real.
I used to call it “the simple bliss of being”—that just rings in one’s being like a bell. And the vibration of that bell just resonates well-being through one’s being, all the way down. [And the opposite of well-being, no matter what the convoluted arguments, is just ill-being. I know of no religion or philosophy that claims to promote ill-being; though sometimes, there are those who will insist that you “have no ‘right’” to experience that well-being, that simple bliss of being, unless… .]
There is no justification for it (that ought to appeal at least to some Christians here); there is no earning it, by this or that “right” understanding, or behavior; there is no “reason” for it. If you experience it, just enjoy with a deep and relaxed and untroubled joy. Likely, you will wish to share it, but don’t be troubled by any “shoulds”. (Besides, we only ever end up really sharing who we are, despite whatever pretenses we might have; so if you are immersed in serenity, that is what you will offer and share.)
I can wish for no more for you—or anyone—than to live in that simple bliss of being. There are no answers with respect to it, because there are no questions that apply. There is only that resonance of well-being (that one might call serenity). I hope that you live there…