Of what worth is your God?

@wolfgang59 said
God existed without time?
He would not be able to say "Let there be light" would he?

In the beginning, means God started time.
When God started creating the universe it was the very first thing that occurred when He created the Heavens and the Earth.

@fmf said
If, as you state, everybody is not worthy and no one deserves "salvation", how is it "justice" if only people who are not members of your religion get tortured in burning flames after they die? There seems to be a completely arbitrary cultural-groupist I'm-alright-Jack thing with no coherent moral basis.

You are self condemned.

@fmf said
I am asking you a very straightforward question: Is there no merit in not "sinning"?

It's actually not so straight forward either in Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant perspectives because the theology surrounding sin is quite in-depth.

You see, there is the concept in Calvinism of "Total Depravity," and the concept in Catholicism of "original sin," and then the concept in Orthodoxy of "ancestral sin."

These are all slightly different, and they do need to be treated differently, but they are all incredibly relevant to your question.

Your question could make sense, still, but it would actually make sense for you to account for these related concepts about sin in regards to your question.

Like...

In light of the doctrine of total depravity or ancestral sin, which talks about man as being perpetually inclined to sin and also being born with this propensity towards sin, and in light of "original sin," which says the same as the above but emphasizes that from the moment of birth we still bear on us the indelible sin of Adam...

is there merit in overcoming our sins?

I think the answer would be yes, of course, that the process of working to overcome sin and succeeding in doing so is meritorious and a solid effort, and the people who tend to do this will be regarded as having achieved something positive. But I would also emphasize that,

human deeds are streaked through with sin due to the self-seeking and egotistical nature of man.

A pure good deed is as difficult as a pure act of contrition. This is something that only Saints can really do with any amount of reliability.

@kellyjay said
You are self condemned.

But I am a non-believer. How can I be self-condemned? That would be like me believing I was self-condemned after making a confession to the law enforcement authorities of the government of Atlantis.

@fmf said
But I am a non-believer. How can I be self-condemned? That would be like me believing I was self-condemned after making a confession to the law enforcement authorities of the government of Atlantis.

Regardless of whether or not you believe, you still have to understand the internal logic of Christianity.

I do not believe in Karma, but if I am discussing something with a Hindu or a Buddhist, it would make sense for me to try to account for myself in terms of their beliefs of karma when I am trying to criticize their beliefs, would it not?

How does what you are saying make sense... It's like, he is insisting on a Christian point of view, and answering things from that perspective, and you remind him that you do not believe in it... Like, is bringing this back to the never-ending debate about the existnece of God the only thing you are here to do?

@wolfgang59 said
I wouldn't call it boasting!
If you stood up and said "I used to be a wife-beater" I wouldn't call it boasting.

What makes you think admitting I am a sinner in need of salvation by God’s mercy a boast? The only one that has any right to boast here is God, that He has redeemed a sinner.

@kellyjay said
In the beginning, means God started time.
When God started creating the universe it was the very first thing that occurred when He created the Heavens and the Earth.

You were not there. You are just spouting make-believe crap. You can only say "I believe, I believe!" Your proof is zero !
And the Earth is 6500 years old. Sure thing.
Just more rubbish.

@caissad4 said
You were not there. You are just spouting make-believe crap. You can only say "I believe, I believe!" Your proof is zero !
And the Earth is 6500 years old. Sure thing.
Just more rubbish.

There's actually a lot of interesting argumentation that goes with the 6,500 year old earth stuff.

That is not my personal belief, but I have seen people defend it in interesting and creative ways.

I wonder what it would look like for you to launch some bigger, longer arguments here, Caiss!

I do not think I have ever seen you go over a couple paragraphs, and I do not think that I have ever seen you do anything except make some jab at osmeone else's view. No real long commitment. Not saying that you are obligated to do so but it'd be nice.

When other people put effort into things, they like to see others put effort in, too.

@philokalia said
Regardless of whether or not you believe, you still have to understand the internal logic of Christianity.

If, by "the internal logic of Christianity" you mean stuff like 'FMF - as not-a-member-of-our-group - you self-condemn yourself to "damnation". FMF you send yourself to "Hell". FMF you get yourself tortured. FMF you are a willful collaborator with "Satan"', then I don't think "logic" is the right word. I just think they are misanthropic and morally incoherent assertions rooted in superstition.

@philokalia said
How does what you are saying make sense... It's like, he is insisting on a Christian point of view, and answering things from that perspective, and you remind him that you do not believe in it...

The problem is that the assertions he is making are incoherent. They sound parochial and ill-thought out and psychologically false. KellyJay is not "answering things". I have asked him repeatedly about the coercion/deterrence factor and the moral purpose as it pertains to a lack of belief and he is dodging it.

@fmf said
I said nothing about anyone who has "not sinned". In response to what KellyJay posted, I asked "Is there no merit in not "sinning"?" The question is about the word "merit".

The question is moot.

It is akin to asking, "Is there no merit in not dying?"

Yes, there is merit in "not dying". Right up until the point when they DO die, because everyone dies.

The question is not about "merit". It's about a false hypothetical.

You're trying to place a value on something that never happens.

@suzianne said
You're trying to place a value on something that never happens.

People don't "sin" all the time ~ most of the time they don't "sin" in many cases. There is temptation. There is resisting temptation. There are loads of situations when people could "sin" but they don't. So I am not "trying to place a value on something that never happens" at all. The question is "Is there no merit in not "sinning"? And it has both you and KellyJay dancing around.

@caissad4 said
You were not there. You are just spouting make-believe crap. You can only say "I believe, I believe!" Your proof is zero !
And the Earth is 6500 years old. Sure thing.
Just more rubbish.

You were not there so does mean anything anyone says is just crap?

@fmf said
People don't "sin" all the time ~ most of the time they don't "sin" in many cases. There is temptation. There is resisting temptation. There are loads of situations when people could "sin" but they don't. So I am not "trying to place a value on something that never happens" at all. The question is "Is there no merit in not "sinning"? And it has both you and KellyJay dancing around.

Merit requires a standard for justice and judgment, so if all fail then the way to God’s Kingdom is completely out of our reach and always will be.

Mercy is totally up to the one giving it, it cannot be earned or bought. Earnings are not given they are owed, buying means its up for sale.

Denying the need for mercy is stating you are ether good enough, or beyond God’s judgment. Denying Him doesn’t remove you from reality He has set, only the salvation He offers!

@kellyjay said
Merit requires a standard for justice and judgment, so if all fail then the way to God’s Kingdom is completely out of our reach and always will be.

Mercy is totally up to the one giving it, it cannot be earned or bought. Earnings are not given they are owed, buying means its up for sale.

Denying the need for mercy is stating you are ether good enough, or beyond God’s judgment. Denying Him doesn’t remove you from reality He has set, only the salvation He offers!

You subscribe to an ideology that declares every human being to be deserving of being tortured in burning flames for eternity after they die but members of your religion will not be tortured because you think certain things about yourself and you think certain things about "Jesus". You can't even prove any of this to be true to those you believe will be tortured. And you can't even make a coherent moral case to support it. It's sheer self-centred misanthropy.