1. Donationbuckky
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    24 Feb '12 23:07
    The quote about it being an abomination before the Lord for a man to lay down with another man was part of Old Testiment law. It was also an abomination to eat pork or shrimp. Why all the uproar over the gay thing with so many eating pork ? Maybe only Jews should be upset over the gay thing but they don't seem to be.
  2. Joined
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    24 Feb '12 23:141 edit
    Originally posted by buckky
    The quote about it being an abomination before the Lord for a man to lay down with another man was part of Old Testiment law. It was also an abomination to eat pork or shrimp. Why all the uproar over the gay thing with so many eating pork ? Maybe only Jews should be upset over the gay thing but they don't seem to be.
    A little known fact is that both pigs and shrimp are, in fact, gay. 😛

    Now does it make any sense for ya? 😲
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    24 Feb '12 23:361 edit
    Originally posted by buckky
    The quote about it being an abomination before the Lord for a man to lay down with another man was part of Old Testiment law. It was also an abomination to eat pork or shrimp. Why all the uproar over the gay thing with so many eating pork ? Maybe only Jews should be upset over the gay thing but they don't seem to be.
    Read the New Testament.

    In the Gospels He teaches so as to pronounce all foods clean and puts more emphasis on what comes OUT of a man's heart.

    There is however NO teaching nullifying or undercutting homosexual sex.

    Jesus did undercut the ritual side of many Old Testament laws, ie. breaking the Sabbath, pronouncing all foods clean. But the moral side of the law concerning adultery, fornication, murder He hightened and made more penetrating.

    Though homosexuality is not mentioned by Jesus per se, it is definitely mentioned by the Apostle Paul who authored 13 of the 27 New Testament books.

    Once again - Jesus in the Gospels sometimes went out of His way to show the superficiality of the ritual aspects of the Law of Moses. But the moral behavioral aspects He made more penetrating to the point that without Him none of us can make it.

    He forces us closer to Himself and to rely on His indwelling grace once He comes into us as Lord and Savior.
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    25 Feb '12 00:21
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Read the New Testament.

    In the Gospels He teaches so as to pronounce all foods clean and puts more emphasis on what comes OUT of a man's heart.

    There is however NO teaching nullifying or undercutting homosexual sex.

    Jesus did undercut the [b]ritual
    side of many Old Testament laws, ie. breaking the Sabbath, pronouncing all foods clean. But the ...[text shortened]... closer to Himself and to rely on His indwelling grace once He comes into us as Lord and Savior.[/b]
    "it's not what you put into another man but what you take out that defiles a man."
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    25 Feb '12 00:386 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    "it's not what you put into another man but what you take out that defiles a man."
    Mark 7:20-23 and Matthew 15:17-20.

    Including these words - "For out of the heart proceed evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies.

    These are the things which defile the man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile the man."


    The RITUAL is downplayed - washing of hands.
    The Morality is made more penetrating.

    "Evil reasonings" preceed many things like fornication and adultery. Jesus causes a man to stop and consider exactly WHAT he is reasoning his way into doing.

    By "evil reasonings" a man convinces himself that he should fornicate or commit greedy lustful acts. It is clearly out of the psychological heart that the defilement of his character comes.

    Reasonings, good or evil, are from the mind of man. So the "heart" here must include the mind of man.

    Mark 7:19 says that Jesus pronounced all foods clean.

    The Gospel never records that Jesus pronounced ALL sexual acts as clean. So you cannot include homosexuality in the same class as the ritual aspects of the Mosiac Law which Jesus underplayed.

    Thankfully He did pronounce that all sins that men sin can be forgiven them (except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit). And that is an arguable one which few are clear what He may have meant.
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    25 Feb '12 04:15
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b] Mark 7:20-23 and Matthew 15:17-20.

    Including these words - "For out of the heart proceed evil reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies.

    These are the things which defile the man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile the man."


    The RITUAL is downplayed - washing of hands.
    The ...[text shortened]... he Holy Spirit). And that is an arguable one which few are clear what He may have meant.[/b]
    dude, it was a joke, but it's a good thing you brought it up. christians use evil reasonings all the time to disobey christ.

    disobey him and go to war
    disobey him and amass wealth (and "things"😉
    disobey him and ignore the poor, hungry, homeless and sick
    disobey him and serve another master (their country).
    disobey him and whine about taxes being too high (rather than paying double like they should)


    it's a long list. christians come up with ingenious evil reasoning all the time. i've heard some uttered here on these forums by the so called christians.
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    25 Feb '12 05:044 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    dude, it was a joke, but it's a good thing you brought it up. christians use evil reasonings all the time to disobey christ.

    disobey him and go to war
    disobey him and amass wealth (and "things"😉
    disobey him and ignore the poor, hungry, homeless and sick
    disobey him and serve another master (their country).
    disobey him and whine about taxes being t ng all the time. i've heard some uttered here on these forums by the so called christians.
    dude, it was a joke,


    I guess I lost track of the joke. But let's consider your statements below seriously:


    but it's a good thing you brought it up. christians use evil reasonings all the time to disobey christ.


    The phrase "all the time" is wishful thinking and exaggeration.

    Of course that one who has become a Christian may commit a sin is taught in the New Testament. Nothing new there.

    No, "all" of every Christian's time is not only commiting sins.


    disobey him and go to war


    This is a pacifest philosophy. However, I cannot think of an 11th commandment in the New Testament saying "Thou Shalt Never Go to War".

    And why are you so ready to adopt Quaker theology but reject theology of other Christian groups? Isn't this kind of selective ? You choose what doctrines constitute obedience or disobedience of Christians based on what ? Is it based on what makes the best anti-Christian argument?

    You may throw you support behind a Pacifist interpretation of Quakerism because it will help support your case that Christians sin "all the time". But that doesn't mean that a Pacifist interpretation of the New Testament is all that valid.

    The book of Hebrews has an instruction that seems to be applicable to Christians according to their maturity and the grace that they have -

    "If possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peave with all men." (Romans 12:18)

    This is an accomodating exhortation. It is not a rigid and legalistic one that allows you to have a "GOTCHA" moment against Christian who might be serving in the military. It says "IF POSSIBLE, AS FAR AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, LIVE IN PEACE WITH ALL MEN."

    The passage accomdates for its application to varying levels of spiritual maturity.

    There is room there for pacifism and also serving as a soldier in one's country's military. Cornelius the Gentile disciple was called as a member of the military:

    "And they said, Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous man and one who fears God and is well attested to by the whole nation of the Jews, was divinely instructed by a holy angel to send for you [the Apostle Peter], to come to his house and hear words from you." (Acts 10:22)

    Nothing in Peter's words in the house of Cornelius suggest that this centurion had to quite the military before becoming a disciple of Jesus.

    If you don't think that Christ can be your Lord and Savior while serving as a soldier for your country then you don't think God is very big.



    disobey him and amass wealth (and "things"


    This is another lame "Gotcha!" accusation that falls flat.

    Jesus said whoever gives up land or houses would receive more. So to the countrary, if God sees that you are not attached greedily to material things but use them for His kingdom, He is likely to cause you to amass more.

    Your superfiscial "gotcha!" accusations really tell me more about your own need to accuse Christians to bolster your own self righteousness.


    disobey him and ignore the poor, hungry, homeless and sick


    This is like the kiss of Judas Iscariot who claimed to be so much for the poor. While complaining about giving to the poor what was really on his heart was to have Jesus murdered and done AWAY with.

    All Christians ignore the poor, hungry, homeless and sick ?
    Far from the truth.

    You are trying to reduce the New Testament to the rigidity of computer program with many "GO TOs" in a mechanical way.



    disobey him and serve another master (their country).


    This is another lame "gotcha!" accusation with no teeth.

    A Christian can "serve" his employer, "serve" his country, "serve" his family without replacing God with the ones he is serving. You have some disciples called as slaves in the New Testament. They were in service to earthly masters. You had members of Ceasars court who became Christians. They could likewisee serve the government of Ceasar without replacing God with Ceasar.

    You must have no experience of actually living in the grace of Christ.


    disobey him and whine about taxes being too high (rather than paying double like they should)


    All do? All the time all do ?

    So if you become a Christian and receive Jesus what will you do? Will you seek to be imitators of those who discourage your faith or seek out those who encourage your faith ?

    If the argument is that less than fully mature disciples of Jesus exist, the answer is Yes, of course some Christians are immature.

    Do you want to exploit that for all its worth for your accusatory "Gotcha!" generalizations ?

    I can do that too. All atheists go into high schools and shoot up their fellow students all the time. "Gotcha!" No excuses now. We know Atheists do stuff like this "ALL THE TIME".

    Hows your own medicine taste ?


    it's a long list. christians come up with ingenious evil reasoning all the time. i've heard some uttered here on these forums by the so called christians.


    Unbelievers need Christ. Christians need more of Christ.
    You've said nothing very useful here. But if it makes you feel better ... go ahead.

    By the way, the words of Jesus was not that evil reasonings come out of the heart of unbelievers ONLY. He said it comes out of the heart PERIOD. You're twisting the passage to make is sound like it is excusing people simply because they have become Christians.

    This is not sober thinking about that passage.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Feb '12 05:09
    Originally posted by buckky
    The quote about it being an abomination before the Lord for a man to lay down with another man was part of Old Testiment law. It was also an abomination to eat pork or shrimp. Why all the uproar over the gay thing with so many eating pork ? Maybe only Jews should be upset over the gay thing but they don't seem to be.
    Quote the verse that says it is an abomination to eat pork or shrimp, please.
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    25 Feb '12 06:29
    Originally posted by jaywill
    dude, it was a joke,


    I guess I lost track of the joke. But let's consider your statements below seriously:


    but it's a good thing you brought it up. christians use evil reasonings all the time to disobey christ.


    The phrase "all the time" is wishful thinking and exaggeration.
    the phrase "all the time" is a figure of speech.

    another way of saying is that is: as a matter of course, christians regularly use evil reasoning to disobey christ.

    but you already knew that, you're just using some of that evil reasoning as a means of displaying your displeasure at this truth about christians being exposed.



    [quote]
    disobey him and go to war


    This is a pacifest philosophy. However, I cannot think of an 11th commandment in the New Testament saying "Thou Shalt Never Go to War".
    [/quote]

    there is no 11th commandment, and there are no 10 commandments for christians.

    for christians, there are two commandments. mat 22:37-40

    And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'



    "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'


    jesus taught not to fight back against your enemies, but to love them and to bless them. he taught them not to not seek revenge. he did not allow anyone to fight to defend him.

    mat 10:16
    "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.



    And why are you so ready to adopt Quaker theology but reject theology of other Christian groups?


    i don't 'adopt' anyone's theology. the quaker's happen to be right in this case, just like the jehova witnesses are right about the false trinity doctrine.


    Isn't this kind of selective ? You choose what doctrines constitute obedience or disobedience of Christians based on what ?


    it's a little something called the bible.


    Is it based on what makes the best anti-Christian argument?


    no, i let christians make those arguments, and then correct them. they don't all see the light. most are set in their ways and determined to use their evil reasoning to continue disobeying christ.



    You may throw you support behind a Pacifist interpretation of Quakerism because it will help support your case that Christians sin "all the time". But that doesn't mean that a Pacifist interpretation of the New Testament is all that valid.


    correct. supporting a quaker doctrine does not mean a pacifist interpretation of the NT is valid. i however do not support the particular doctrines of any group. some just happen to get things right every now and then. law of averages. some day you might surprise me by getting something right as well.


    The book of Hebrews has an instruction that seems to be applicable to Christians according to their maturity and the grace that they have -

    "If possible, as far as it depends on you, live in peave with all men." (Romans 12:18)

    This is an accomodating exhortation. It is not a rigid and legalistic one that allows you to have a "GOTCHA" moment against Christian who might be serving in the military. It says "IF POSSIBLE, AS FAR AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU, LIVE IN PEACE WITH ALL MEN."


    more of your evil reasoning at work. this does not imply that the opposite is war, indeed, you ignore all the surrounding verses:


    Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. ...

    Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. [fn]Respect what is right in the sight of all men....

    Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
    "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."
    Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


    never take revenge, overcome evil with good. these are not instructions to go to war when it pleases you no matter which way you reason your evil.

    the proper christian response to not being able to live in peace is suffering in persecution. suffering is what defined christ and his life; and a central aspect of his theology.



    There is room there for pacifism and also serving as a soldier in one's country's military. Cornelius the Gentile disciple was called as a member of the military:


    there is no room for that nonsense. the story of cornelius is to show that the god of the jews is also available for the gentiles. it is not an invitation to go to war.

    this was known to the early christians; before the roman corruption they routinely accepted death rather than serve in the roman armies.



    If you don't think that Christ can be your Lord and Savior while serving as a soldier for your country then you don't think God is very big.


    you cannot have a "your country" when serving christ. you cannot be a soldier when serving christ. this has nothing to do with the size of god, it's just more of your evil reasoning at work.



    [quote]

    disobey him and amass wealth (and "things"


    This is another lame "Gotcha!" accusation that falls flat.

    Jesus said whoever gives up land or houses would receive more. So to the countrary, if God sees that you are not attached greedily to material things but use them for His kingdom, He is likely to cause you to amass more.

    Your superfiscial "gotcha!" accusations really tell me more about your own need to accuse Christians to bolster your own self righteousness.

    [/quote]

    you define your evil reasoning with the word "gotcha"
    the "gotcha" is in the bible. you cannot serve two masters.

    mat 6:24
    "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.


    among other things, there is also that bit about the rich man and the eye of the needle, but i'm sure you already know that.


    [quote]
    disobey him and ignore the poor, hungry, homeless and sick


    This is like the kiss of Judas Iscariot who claimed to be so much for the poor. While complaining about giving to the poor what was really on his heart was to have Jesus murdered and done AWAY with.

    All Christians ignore the poor, hungry, homeless and sick ?
    Far from the truth.
    [/quote]

    this is a long standing policy of the christian right. they are worshippers of ayn randian philosophy of objectivism with the trappings of christianity. the two don't mix very well.



    [quote]
    disobey him and serve another master (their country).


    This is another lame "gotcha!" accusation with no teeth.

    A Christian can "serve" his employer, "serve" his country, "serve" his family without replacing God with the ones he is serving. You have some disciples called as slaves in the New Testament. They were in service to earthly masters. You had members of Ceasars court who became Christians. They could likewisee serve the government of Ceasar without replacing God with Ceasar.
    [/quote]

    your unfettered evil reasoning at work. a christian is obligated to serve caesar in labor. not serve as in war. caesar cannot order you to take a human life for that is the domain of god.



    You must have no experience of actually living in the grace of Christ.


    whatever experience i have is clearly much closer to the grace of christ than you will ever get with your continued evil reasoning to disobey him.

    it must embarrass you realize that someone who has rejected christ's theology is closer to the understanding of his theology than you.



    [quote]
    disobey him and whine about taxes being too high (rather than paying double like they should)


    All do? All the time all do ?

    So if you become a Christian and receive Jesus what will you do? Will you seek to be imitators of those who discourage your faith or seek out those who encourage your faith ?
    [/quote]

    how about obey what christ says. that would be enough. why do you have to seek the encouragement from other pretenders? will you allow you faith to be swayed by honeyed words?

    someone who says: "oh good job on believing in christ... by the way, he wants you to travel to your neighbors nation and kill him."

    is more credible to you than someone who says:

    "what a fool you are for believing christ. he wants you to turn the other cheek and bless those who persecute you."

    Do you want to exploit that for all its worth for your accusatory "Gotcha!" generalizations ?

    I can do that too. All atheists go into high schools and shoot up their fellow students all the time. "Gotcha!" No excuses now. We know Atheists do stuff like this "ALL THE TIME".

    Hows your own medicine taste ?


    it tastes like someone using evil reasoning to continue to disobey christ.


    By the way, the words of Jesus was not that evil reasonings come out of the heart of unbelievers ONLY. He said it comes out of the heart PERIOD. You're twisting the passage to make is sound like it is excusing people simply because they have become Christians.

    This is not sober thinking about that passage.


    i didn't claim that only christians use evil reasoning. most criminals try to justify their crimes. this is a general rule as well, most people try to justify their actions and decisions, even if they have made the wrong ones.
  10. SubscriberSuzianne
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    25 Feb '12 12:41
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    i didn't claim that only christians use evil reasoning. most criminals try to justify their crimes. this is a general rule as well, most people try to justify their actions and decisions, even if they have made the wrong ones.
    And most atheists try to justify their rejection of God and Christ. This only makes your defense of the teachings of Christ laughable.
  11. SubscriberSuzianne
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    25 Feb '12 12:43
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Quote the verse that says it is an abomination to eat pork or shrimp, please.
    I think you would have no problem agreeing that they are not kosher, no?
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    25 Feb '12 16:256 edits
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    [b]the phrase "all the time" is a figure of speech.

    another way of saying is that is: as a matter of course, christians regularly use evil reasoning to disobey christ.

    but you already knew that, you're just using some of that evil reasoning as a means of displaying your displeasure at this truth about christians being exposed.
    more of your evil reasoning at work. this does not imply that the opposite is war, indeed, you ignore all the surrounding verses:


    [/b] Don't have time for a sentence by sentence response.

    Let's look at the central issue here which I think is:

    'Is there a hard LEGAL obligation for a Christian disciple NOT to serve in the military or be a soldier ? "

    Now I realize that you go after the "Religious Right" the way Captain Ahab went after Mody Dick. But I tend to vote liberal. So my politics is not rightwing on this matter.

    The issue is that though a Christian is exhorted to live the highest level of morality on earth, both in Matthew and in the epistle of Hebrews, it is not the lifeless, mechanical, computer like legalism which makes it impossible for a disciple of Jesus to be also a soldier.

    Context of the Romans 12:18 passage ? Sure! Take ALL THE CONTEXT YOU NEED. I am all for CONTEXT. Context, context, context.

    Now with all the surrounding context considered WHY does the writer then say - If POSSIBLE, as far as it depends on you, live in peace with all men." ?

    1.) The tone suggests that the writer realizes that it may NOT depend on the Christian. His circumstances simply do not ALLOW for a peaceful coexistence.

    Who can say that Paul was not a mature disciple ? He was considerable well experienced and mature as a Christian. Yet even Paul could not live peacefully with EVERYBODY. Sometimes it simply was not possible to be at peace with, say Alexander the coppersmith or the Judiazers.

    The same is true with a professional SOLDIER stationed on one side of a DMZ. Circumstances simply do not permit him to mossy over and chat with another country's standing army on the other side. He would be SHOT. And it is is his DUTY to his country to SHOOT if someone crosses over.

    Now if he cannot accept that duty because of conscience sake he should get OUT of the army.

    I challenge you to show me, though, a legal command to a Christian demanding that it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to be a Christian and a soldier.

    Chapter? Verse?

    2.) Context ? Okay, let's consider context in the next sentence - "Do not avenge yourslves, beloved, but give place to the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengence is Mine, I will repay." (v.19)

    A professional soldier may have to FIGHT without the sense of PERSONAL revenge. It is simply his or her job to guard, defend, shoot to kill. It is not always a matter of exacting PERSONAL revenge. It is a military duty - a job. It is a HARD job of course. It is a hard job to be a policeman too. It is not an impossible one for a Christian to be employed in.

    You can shoot without a feeling of personal revenge.

    3.) " But if your enemy is hungry, feed him ..."

    Prisoners of war allow a Christian to FEED an enemy.

    In the Second World War the Germans much rather surrender to the Allied forces than to the Russians. Why? What they did to the Russians they expected the Russians would exact terrible vengence for. Their attitude

    "Though we have been pretty nasty to the Allied forces, it is better to fall into their hands in defeat than to fall into the hands of those Russians."

    They expected some degree of mercy from the Allied forces. They suspected that there would be no mercy from the enraged inhabitants of Russia.

    Look, all I am saying is that even in war time, when one has a professional duty to fight and kill, there is not altogether no opportunity to show mercy, feed the enemy, and testify to one's Christian character.

    If you disagree with any of this then you can explain WHY Paul would even say "IF POSSIBLE, AS FAR AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU ..." .

    Why did the Apostle not simply say ' "Here's the command, Do it or FORGET about being a follower of Jesus."

    The exhortation reveals accomodation to levels of capacity, levels of control over a situation.

    And again, though the case of Cornelius highlights the Gentiles coming into the church, the mentioning of his being of the Roman military must be significant. The Holy Spirit came to touch a SOLDIER to become a believer.

    Nothing is said about the mandatory requirement for Cornelius to LEAVE his profession in the Roman army.

    God wants SOLDIERS also the become disciples so that other SOLDIERS may see Christ living in one of their own kind.
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    26 Feb '12 02:38
    Originally posted by jaywill
    'Is there a hard LEGAL obligation for a Christian disciple NOT to serve in the military or be a soldier ? "
    ...
    If you disagree with any of this then you can explain WHY Paul would even say "IF POSSIBLE, AS FAR AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU ..." .


    paul is saying as long as it is your choice, you are to remain peaceful. paul realizes that you can be peaceful and still face opposition. paul is not saying march off to war if it is up to you.
    the rest of the NT instructs you on how to behave if you are persecuted despite your best efforts to be peaceful. hint: you're to suffer it.

    'Is there a hard LEGAL obligation for a Christian disciple NOT to serve in the military or be a soldier ? "


    to serve in the military? a christian may be called upon to serve in the military in non-combat roles. there are plenty of opportunities there for labor and healing.

    but they may never at any time raise a weapon and strike (or shoot) at whatever enemy presents itself. there are clear and concise rules on proper behavior in these circumstances and they involve things already mentioned.

    peaceful non resistance, non violence, suffering persecution and faithful loyalty to his father and his message were the central themes of christ's ministry. you're doing none of those things if you're a soldier marching off to war.

    And again, though the case of Cornelius highlights the Gentiles coming into the church, the mentioning of his being of the Roman military must be significant. The Holy Spirit came to touch a SOLDIER to become a believer.


    we know very little about cornelius and his role in the legion. we know that he has a house and servants in that household, further that he can entertain guests.

    it's likely he has already left active service. an active roman soldier lives in the military barracks. but his role in the military is not the significance of that story. the significance of that story is to show the controversial policy shift in allowing gentiles to be converted.
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    27 Feb '12 03:301 edit
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    If you disagree with any of this then you can explain WHY Paul would even say "IF POSSIBLE, AS FAR AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU ..." .


    paul is saying as long as it is your choice, you are to remain peaceful. paul realizes that you can be peaceful and still face opposition. paul is not saying march off to war if it is up to you.
    the rest of t t story is to show the controversial policy shift in allowing gentiles to be converted.


    paul is saying as long as it is your choice, you are to remain peaceful. paul realizes that you can be peaceful and still face opposition. paul is not saying march off to war if it is up to you.



    I am not saying you have here a command to march off to war.
    I am saying that Paul's word accomodates for case by case situations which take into account the depth of grace a Christian has.

    This is not an exhortation to unbelievers or to the world in general. It is an exhortation to churching Christians who have received Christ. "As far as it depends on you ..." takes into account the depth of their surrender to the Lord. It accounts also for circumstances these believers find themselves in.

    I didn't see any point to your saying it is not a command to go off to war. Rather it is a exhortation to be heeded in WHATEVER circumstances a believer may find surround him. Some, found themselves as soldiers.

    I see no exhortation for believers not to be employed as a professional soldier which is so unambiguous as to support Pacifism broadly as a legal requirement of Christian discipleship. It is not necessarily sinful to serve as a soldier. It is not necessarily sinful to not do so for conscience sake.




    the rest of the NT instructs you on how to behave if you are persecuted despite your best efforts to be peaceful. hint: you're to suffer it.


    I don't deny that Christ discouraged the natural tendency to retaliate against aggression. Actually, He is the only one who can really live this way. The exhoration to love the enemy and turn the other cheek has to be related to abiding in Him as He is alive and available.

    Try to love your enemy on your own and see how far you get.
    The exhortations demand that a believer press into Christ's available Person and experience His Spirit with His empowering grace.

    Since in the GROWTH of spiritual life the believers are at different capacities, the exhortation is " as much as it depends on you ". In other words, as much as you have experienced the empowering grace of the indwelling Christ.





    me:
    'Is there a hard LEGAL obligation for a Christian disciple NOT to serve in the military or be a soldier ? "

    VS:
    to serve in the military? a christian may be called upon to serve in the military in non-combat roles. there are plenty of opportunities there for labor and healing.


    I do not disagree that there are many alternative services there to do. But we know too many Christians who also serve as combatants if the need be.

    Is there a specific non-ambiguous passage making a legal obligation for believer in Christ NOT to serve as a military combatant ? I cannot think of any.

    And Paul used the military as a parable about disciplined discipleship to his co-worker Timothy:

    "No one serving as a soldier entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please the one who enlisted him." ( 2 Tim. 2:4)

    That would be a curious analogy for a Christian teacher who regarded military service as basically anathema to the spiritual life.

    He also, in Ephesians chapter 6, goes into a long analogy about the whole armor of God. He mentions the equipment of the typical Roman soldier or gladiator. Again, that would be a curious model had he considered soldiering as basically against the teaching of Jesus.


    but they may never at any time raise a weapon and strike (or shoot) at whatever enemy presents itself. there are clear and concise rules on proper behavior in these circumstances and they involve things already mentioned.



    Sure. Military service may indeed NEVER call for combatant aggression. But it also may. Christians can also find themselves on the battlefield.

    I do not have the assurance to tell a Christian brother that he must not, should not, cannot enlist to the military.

    And for an Atheist to presume he knows best what was the intention of the apostles' hearts is a stretch. It is suspect to be told what was the intention of the servants of Jesus whose intentions are obviously not those of a servant of Jesus.

    Your label suggests that you don't even believe that God exists. But you have the inside track on what was in the mind and instructions of a man like the Apostle Paul ?

    I would be persuaded by a clear unambiguous instruction that a Christian should not sign up to be a soldier. I don't think you can find that.



    peaceful non resistance, non violence, suffering persecution and faithful loyalty to his father and his message were the central themes of christ's ministry. you're doing none of those things if you're a soldier marching off to war.


    An Athiest is usually not very good at showing people the "central themes" of Christ's message with a serious face. Christ centrality was to point to Himself as the Lord and Savrior. And that to the point that death would not be able to hold Him away from His lovers.

    "Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me."

    If He is dead or gone or absent we cannot abide in Him. Abiding in Him, all things considered in the NT, means that Christ is alive and available. And He is "enterable". Man can get into the realm of this living Person.

    Now you are saying, that no once who enters into this living Person to abide in Him can also be a professional soldier. That is impossiblee. For before, during, and after people come to Jesus Christ and are involved in all kinds of circumstances. War time, military training, and actual combat are not exceptions.

    I think I would have to regard your interpretation somewhat the same as Paul's word that it is better to remain a single person, like him, to serve the Lord. It certainly was Paul's recommendation in the earlier part of his ministry. Latter he advized unwed widows to marry. And he had considerable advice concerning marriage.

    While he cautioned about it, it was not a legal prohibition. In fact Paul said that the refusal to allow serving Christians to marry in a legal way was a doctrine of demons.

    It may not be expedient to be a killing machine, cut throat assasin trained in the Navy Seals or Rangers. But there is no New Testament legality saying one cannot be in that profession.

    All things are lawful. But not all things are expedient. And I am pretty sure that God has witnesses to Himself in many many places. He wants someone in this situation and that situation to testify to Christ's Lordship.

    Beyond this I think we would have to ask a military man who is a Christian and who has been one during combat to tell us of the experience. God's style is not fidgity. After one's obligation the Holy Spirit may impress a soldier that now is the time for him to be in a less violent situation. But then again, we Christians know that He often does not act according to our concepts. He may NOT allow that Christian soldier to be in another situation. And that MAY continue for years.

    Look VS. There are Christian brothers and sisters who are soldier. You may judge them as all wrong. I won't, not on any broad automatic pacifist basis which I cannot support clearly in the New Testament.



    we know very little about cornelius and his role in the legion. we know that he has a house and servants in that household, further that he can entertain guests.



    As a Roman soldier we can surmise safely that he was trained to fight and kill.

    The question here is not where can I see a verse saying "Christian - GO TO WAR". It is rather I cannot find a teaching "Christian - It is impossible that you should be a soldier in war."



    it's likely he has already left active service. an active roman soldier lives in the military barracks. but his role in the military is not the significance of that story. the significance of that story is to show the controversial policy shift in allowing gentiles to be converted.


    We know little about him? But you know he had already left military service ? Why then would the Holy Spirit have the author of Acts mention that he was a soldier ?

    Here's a problem. You don't take seriously that the Holy Spirit has a hand in the breathing out of every scripture.

    Acts 10:1 - " Now there was in Ceasarea a certain man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, ..."

    The Scripture is economical. The mentioning of this detail must be meaningful to the Holy Spirit. He preently was a centurion. It doesn't say that he had been so in the past.

    Regardless though, no clear prohition to the profession of soldier can be found in the NT.
  15. Joined
    10 Jun '11
    Moves
    3829
    27 Feb '12 06:38
    Originally posted by jaywill


    paul is saying as long as it is your choice, you are to remain peaceful. paul realizes that you can be peaceful and still face opposition. paul is not saying march off to war if it is up to you.



    I am not saying you have here a command to march off to war.
    I am saying that Paul's word accomodates for case by case situations wh ...[text shortened]... n to the profession of soldier can be found in the NT.
    i didn't see anything in your lengthy reasoning that disputed my claim. you're looking for a specific phrase, such a phrase you won't find. the entire new testament and christ's ministry is based on pacifism for both himself and his followers.

    though you may try to use evil reasoning to justify disobeying christ when it comes to killing others, you will not find support for it in the new testament. i have already listed many verses that command pacifism from christ's followers, you have listed none that allow for a "christian" to go off on an adventure and murder his fellow humans for god and country.
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