Originally posted by VoidSpirit
If you disagree with any of this then you can explain WHY Paul would even say "IF POSSIBLE, AS FAR AS IT DEPENDS ON YOU ..." .
paul is saying as long as it is your choice, you are to remain peaceful. paul realizes that you can be peaceful and still face opposition. paul is not saying march off to war if it is up to you.
the rest of t t story is to show the controversial policy shift in allowing gentiles to be converted.
paul is saying as long as it is your choice, you are to remain peaceful. paul realizes that you can be peaceful and still face opposition. paul is not saying march off to war if it is up to you.
I am not saying you have here a command to march off to war.
I am saying that Paul's word accomodates for case by case situations which take into account the depth of grace a Christian has.
This is not an exhortation to unbelievers or to the world in general. It is an exhortation to churching Christians who have received Christ.
"As far as it depends on you ..." takes into account the depth of their surrender to the Lord. It accounts also for circumstances these believers find themselves in.
I didn't see any point to your saying it is not a command to go off to war. Rather it is a exhortation to be heeded in WHATEVER circumstances a believer may find surround him. Some, found themselves as soldiers.
I see no exhortation for believers not to be employed as a professional soldier which is so unambiguous as to support Pacifism broadly as a legal requirement of Christian discipleship. It is not necessarily sinful to serve as a soldier. It is not necessarily sinful to not do so for conscience sake.
the rest of the NT instructs you on how to behave if you are persecuted despite your best efforts to be peaceful. hint: you're to suffer it.
I don't deny that Christ discouraged the natural tendency to retaliate against aggression. Actually, He is the only one who can really live this way. The exhoration to love the enemy and turn the other cheek has to be related to abiding in Him as He is alive and available.
Try to love your enemy on your own and see how far you get.
The exhortations demand that a believer press into Christ's available Person and experience His Spirit with His empowering grace.
Since in the GROWTH of spiritual life the believers are at different capacities, the exhortation is
" as much as it depends on you ". In other words, as much as you have experienced the empowering grace of the indwelling Christ.
me:
'Is there a hard LEGAL obligation for a Christian disciple NOT to serve in the military or be a soldier ? "
VS:
to serve in the military? a christian may be called upon to serve in the military in non-combat roles. there are plenty of opportunities there for labor and healing.
I do not disagree that there are many alternative services there to do. But we know too many Christians who also serve as combatants if the need be.
Is there a specific non-ambiguous passage making a legal obligation for believer in Christ NOT to serve as a military combatant ? I cannot think of any.
And Paul used the military as a parable about disciplined discipleship to his co-worker Timothy:
"No one serving as a soldier entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please the one who enlisted him." ( 2 Tim. 2:4)
That would be a curious analogy for a Christian teacher who regarded military service as basically anathema to the spiritual life.
He also, in Ephesians chapter 6, goes into a long analogy about the whole armor of God. He mentions the equipment of the typical Roman soldier or gladiator. Again, that would be a curious model had he considered soldiering as basically against the teaching of Jesus.
but they may never at any time raise a weapon and strike (or shoot) at whatever enemy presents itself. there are clear and concise rules on proper behavior in these circumstances and they involve things already mentioned.
Sure. Military service may indeed NEVER call for combatant aggression. But it also may. Christians can also find themselves on the battlefield.
I do not have the assurance to tell a Christian brother that he must not, should not, cannot enlist to the military.
And for an Atheist to presume he knows best what was the intention of the apostles' hearts is a stretch. It is suspect to be told what was the intention of the servants of Jesus whose intentions are obviously not those of a servant of Jesus.
Your label suggests that you don't even believe that God exists. But you have the inside track on what was in the mind and instructions of a man like the Apostle Paul ?
I would be persuaded by a clear unambiguous instruction that a Christian should not sign up to be a soldier. I don't think you can find that.
peaceful non resistance, non violence, suffering persecution and faithful loyalty to his father and his message were the central themes of christ's ministry. you're doing none of those things if you're a soldier marching off to war.
An Athiest is usually not very good at showing people the "central themes" of Christ's message with a serious face. Christ centrality was to point to Himself as the Lord and Savrior. And that to the point that death would not be able to hold Him away from His lovers.
"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me."
If He is dead or gone or absent we cannot abide in Him. Abiding in Him, all things considered in the NT, means that Christ is alive and available. And He is "enterable". Man can get into the realm of this living Person.
Now you are saying, that no once who enters into this living Person to abide in Him can also be a professional soldier. That is impossiblee. For before, during, and after people come to Jesus Christ and are involved in all kinds of circumstances. War time, military training, and actual combat are not exceptions.
I think I would have to regard your interpretation somewhat the same as Paul's word that it is better to remain a single person, like him, to serve the Lord. It certainly was Paul's recommendation in the earlier part of his ministry. Latter he advized unwed widows to marry. And he had considerable advice concerning marriage.
While he cautioned about it, it was not a legal prohibition. In fact Paul said that the refusal to allow serving Christians to marry in a legal way was a doctrine of demons.
It may not be expedient to be a killing machine, cut throat assasin trained in the Navy Seals or Rangers. But there is no New Testament legality saying one cannot be in that profession.
All things are lawful. But not all things are expedient. And I am pretty sure that God has witnesses to Himself in many many places. He wants someone in this situation and that situation to testify to Christ's Lordship.
Beyond this I think we would have to ask a military man who is a Christian and who has been one during combat to tell us of the experience. God's style is not fidgity. After one's obligation the Holy Spirit may impress a soldier that now is the time for him to be in a less violent situation. But then again, we Christians know that He often does not act according to our concepts. He may NOT allow that Christian soldier to be in another situation. And that MAY continue for years.
Look VS. There are Christian brothers and sisters who are soldier. You may judge them as all wrong. I won't, not on any broad automatic pacifist basis which I cannot support clearly in the New Testament.
we know very little about cornelius and his role in the legion. we know that he has a house and servants in that household, further that he can entertain guests.
As a Roman soldier we can surmise safely that he was trained to fight and kill.
The question here is not where can I see a verse saying "Christian - GO TO WAR". It is rather I cannot find a teaching "Christian - It is impossible that you should be a soldier in war."
it's likely he has already left active service. an active roman soldier lives in the military barracks. but his role in the military is not the significance of that story. the significance of that story is to show the controversial policy shift in allowing gentiles to be converted.
We know little about him? But you know he had already left military service ? Why then would the Holy Spirit have the author of Acts mention that he was a soldier ?
Here's a problem. You don't take seriously that the Holy Spirit has a hand in the breathing out of every scripture.
Acts 10:1 - " Now there was in Ceasarea a certain man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, ..."
The Scripture is economical. The mentioning of this detail must be meaningful to the Holy Spirit. He preently was a centurion. It doesn't say that he had been so in the past.
Regardless though, no clear prohition to the profession of soldier can be found in the NT.
24 Feb '12 23:07
Old Testiment law
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