Old Testiment law

being able to see gods point of view doesnt make his point of view correct.

The idea of a incompetent God makes no sense. How could He give what He had not the capacity to give ? How could He make His creature MORE right when He has not the rightness to dispense ?

The idea of the CAUSE being inferior to the EFFECT has never been a convincing argument to me.

Besides, I can examine Jesus Christ and see that there is no higher level of goodness to have ever walk this earth. He is worthy of my trust.

i read all the time, but im not keen on fairy stories.

This doesn't read like a "fairy story" to many of us:

"Now in the fifteenth year of the government of Tiberius Caesar, while Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene, during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John the son of Zachariah in the wilderness." (Luke 3:1,2)

That reads like history to me rather than a "Once Upon a Time In a Far Off Land ..." [/b]

This reads lik Journalism to me -

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to draw up a narrative concerning the matters which have been fully accomplished among us, Even as those who from the beginning became eyewitnesses and ministers ofthe word have delvered them to us, It seemed good to me also, having carefully investigated all things from the first, to write them out for you in an orderly fashion, most excellent Theophilus, So that you may fully know the certainty of the things concerning which you were instructed." (Luke 1:1-4)

This reads like journalism to me and not "fairy stories".
Those who call the New Testament "fairy stories" to me, do not display sober thinking.

Then we have the Apostle Peter's word that they in fact, did NOT follow "cleverly devised myths."

"For we did not follow cleverly devised when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we became eyewitnesses of that One's majesty.

For He received from God the Father honor and glory, a voice such as this being borne to Him by the magnificent glory; This is My Son, My Beloved, in whom I delight.

And this voice we heard being borne out of heaven while we were with Him in the holy mountain." (2 Pet. 1:16-18)

EYEWITNESSES, NOT following "cleverly devised myths".

so i should thank god that somebody else is suffering rather than me?

Well, if you INSIST on being sadistic about it, who can stop you.
Some of us help others and pray for others.

But if it bulsters up your skepticism to have a sick and sadistic approach, go ahead and be a sicko about it.

that sounds pretty damn cold and selfish.

You are stupid. So being thankful is damn cold and selfish ?

You think you're clever to exploit the MOST twisted and MOST perverted angle.
You think this is pretty clever of you ?

while im at it shall i thank god that a pedophile decided to rape and kill some other child rather than my daughter? should i thank him for my food, while he allows others to starve?

No. You could offer them Christian love, service, encouragement, and testimony how even in your own misfortunes God strenghtened you.

But since you have no experience and want none, you have nothing but your warped, perverted, twisted way to turn everything around. You are very clever at twisting everything around to use every conceivable spiritual opportunity to show how pitch black cynical your heart can be.

The God of resurrection can get down underneath even one who has suffered rape. If God could not get low enough to uphold even the rape victom then the crucifixion of Jesus would be rather pointless.

I met people who have had tragedies. I have not been spared all misfortunes just because I am a believer. Life has not always been a continuous bed of roses JUST because I follow Jesus Christ. I am still thankful and have a reserve of experience of God in tragedy to be ABLE to encourage others having tragedy.

"But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.

For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Nor rape, nor war, nor disease, nor religious crimes, nor the sicko opposition of atheists, nor the twisted and perverted rationals of skeptics, nor any other misfortune or opposition or obstacle will rob us of our eternal victory in the resurrected Son of God.

I think I have read enough of your cynicism. I thank God He mercifully touched my heart before I rotted in such cynical twisted logic as you boast.

Originally posted by buckky
The quote about it being an abomination before the Lord for a man to lay down with another man was part of Old Testiment law. It was also an abomination to eat pork or shrimp. Why all the uproar over the gay thing with so many eating pork ? Maybe only Jews should be upset over the gay thing but they don't seem to be.

The food restrictions were for health reasons as we even know today that pork has to be cooked fully or else one could suffer for it.
But the homosexual issues were a moral issue and a disgusting thing in God's eyes and contrary to his design for humans to "prosper and fill the world".
That is why he created the first humans male and female.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Holy Bible says there is one God, not one god.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Today's New International Version (TNIV)

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.


Deuteronomy 6:4
Amplified Bible (AMP)

4Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord [the only Lord].

Man that would have been a great time to say "the lord is a 3 in 1 god" don't ya think?

Originally posted by jaywill

" Satan - a being created once with superlative wisdom and beauty and great authority and a free will. He turned and became the nemisis against God Himself."

so a perfect god created a creature that has enough power to challenge him? dumb move. why does satan hate god so much?

" I recommend "The Invisible War" by Dr. Donald Barnhouse.
Or the first third of a book "Earth's Earliest Ages" by G. H. Pember."

im a busy boy, but i will check them out. will they make a nice holiday read?

"Not "just" for you. But you are certainly included."

what are the conditions for him to stop waiting?


" What if you are part of the enemy ? Only a fool would not want to be reconciled to God first before He arises to scatter His enemies. Christ has come for the sinner's reconcilation to God. "

i guess that makes me a fool then.

" Trust is not blind. Trust is full of sight and wisdom that the credentials of the trusted one are persuasive. I know nothing of so-called "Blind Faith".

Trust can be blind. i could give you hundreds of examples of blind faith. trust is not wisdom! they are two totally unrelated things. the human brain is capable of all sorts of malfunctions you dont know if you are suffering from one or not, but you choose to ignore this fact making your trust blind.

"(from the song Amazing Grace)"

yes and used excellently by primal scream in the song "moving on up"

" But you don't want Him to start with you. "Clear it all up. But leave ME alone entirely." That is the attitude I hear. "Its THOSE people doing THOSE things over there. Why are you standing by and letting it just happen."

if thats the attitude you hear then you are not listening. if your god is real then he can wipe me off the face of the earth, he can start with me if he wants but i wont go with my head bowed or on my knees, ill go down kicking him his godly balls for all the suffering hes put mankind through.


"One on one, Jesus Christ has a way to start changing YOU. Why don't you realize that that is part of His operation to "FIX" it all ?"

it shouldnt be broken in the first place, there is no reason to create such a flawed world.

"Imagine a chess master who is impossible to defeat and you may get an idea of the power of the God of resurrection to overcome every obstacle."

im confused, can he be beaten or not. i thought satan could possibly beat him?

" That is YOUR assumption as one looking from the outside.
YOU assume we are following "blindly" just by a sheer will power, like the Wizard of Oz -"

no not like the wizard of oz. like the imperfection of human natures need to explain what they dont understand away with magic and spirtuality. its happened since the dawn of man, in millions of different forms of nonsense, your beliefs are no more valid than a tarot card readers, the bible has no more historical reality than the illiad.

" I DO believe. I DO believe. I DO, I DO, I DO believe "

keep saying it wont make it true.

"The idea of a incompetent God makes no sense. How could He give what He had not the capacity to give ? How could He make His creature MORE right when He has not the rightness to dispense ? "

okay, look at it this way. a doctor can put a man with a personality disorder in a brain scan and see what parts of his brain are not firing correctly. they can give many of these drugs to inhibit their urge to act on their disorder.....but god couldnt have built the brain better so it didnt have these problems.


" Besides, I can examine Jesus Christ and see that there is no higher level of goodness to have ever walk this earth. He is worthy of my trust."

youve never met me!

i shouldnt have called the bible a fairy story. it was a cheap shot. i apologize.

"But if it bulsters up your skepticism to have a sick and sadistic approach, go ahead and be a sicko about it. "

the reason i use "sick" examples is to emphasize the horrors that god allows to happen. talking about disturbing things doesnt make me a sicko.

" You are stupid. So being thankful is damn cold and selfish ? "

sometimes being thankful can be selfish, not all the time but sometimes. example - a man breaks into my house shoots my family but spares me. should i be thankful? no.
am i stupid? well thats subjective, but my mother brought me up not to call people stupid, its very rude.

"You think this is pretty clever of you ? "

i dont do things to be clever. im just trying to express my thoughts.

"But since you have no experience and want none, you have nothing but your warped, perverted, twisted way to turn everything around. You are very clever at twisting everything around to use every conceivable spiritual opportunity to show how pitch black cynical your heart can be."

religion is easy to warp and twist because it has so many holes and contradicts its self so much. it has dubious morals and promotes an elitist attitude among its followers.
my hearts not black. just because i dont like your god doesnt make me a bad person. im not the one looking forward to having fun in heaven/jerusalem without a care for everybody else.

" The God of resurrection can get down underneath even one who has suffered rape. If God could not get low enough to uphold even the rape victom then the crucifixion of Jesus would be rather pointless"

okay i get the point that god can help victims of rape. thats not the point, the point is god didnt stop it. would you stand by and let somebody be raped?

"okay i get the point that god can help victims of rape. thats not the point, the point is god didnt stop it. would you stand by and let somebody be raped?"

Good question. But one has to understand that with Adam choosing to go against God's will and his plans for all humans which would have no doubt included him protecting all humans against something like rape if anyone would have chosen to do that to another human.
But we have been seperated from God's immediate protection now because of being in a sinful state and because the majority of mankind not wanting to have a relationship with him and even denying his existance.
It's not that God does not see those terrible things happen and it truely does disgust him. But fortunently he does promise a time in the future when all wickedness such as rape will be done away with and all of us can live in peace that we all want.

Originally posted by galveston75

Good question. But one has to understand that with Adam choosing to go against God's will and his plans for all humans which would have no doubt included him protecting all humans against something like rape if anyone would have chosen to do that to another human.
But we have been seperated from God's immediate protection now because of being in a sinf ...[text shortened]... kedness such as rape will be done away with and all of us can live in peace that we all want.[/b]

who separated us from gods protection?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
who separated us from gods protection?

Humans did. Adam chose to go a direction that God did not want and as result we became imperfect physically and most of mankind has moved away from God spiritually since then. God has given us hope though and that is why he sent his son Jesus to earth to give his life as a ransom for all humans that want it.
So in the future once all wickness has been removed from the earth and we return to physical perfection and re establish our devotion to God and are willing to listen to him as Adam should have, then we will be under his protection in all things.

Originally posted by galveston75
Humans did. Adam chose to go a direction that God did not want and as result we became imperfect physically and most of mankind has moved away from God spiritually since then. God has given us hope though and that is why he sent his son Jesus to earth to give his life as a ransom for all humans that want it.
So in the future once all wickness has been ...[text shortened]... illing to listen to him as Adam should have, then we will be under his protection in all things.

who decided that the consequences of adams actions would result in a separation from god?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
who decided that the consequences of adams actions would result in a separation from god?

Again Adam and Eve did. That action had to result in God pulling away and starting into motion the events that would one day bring man back into the position of being in a condition that the relationship would be repaired.
I know where you are going with this and it's a good question. But one has to understand God's PERFECT ways and JUST ways which are way beyond ours.
An issue was raised by Satan in the point that God could not be the one to lead man and he even called him a lier to Adam and Eve. They believed him and went the way Satan suggested.
Now the right for God to rule had been challenged and steps, righteous and legal steps had to be taken to prove that Satan is in fact the lier and that God is the true ruler of man. He created us out of love and will be the one to protect us in the future.

Originally posted by galveston75
Again Adam and Eve did. That action had to result in God pulling away and starting into motion the events that would one day bring man back into the position of being in a condition that the relationship would be repaired.
I know where you are going with this and it's a good question. But one has to understand God's PERFECT ways and JUST ways which are ...[text shortened]... true ruler of man. He created us out of love and will be the one to protect us in the future.

so adam and eve decide they dont want god then god becomes powerless to them?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so adam and eve decide they dont want god then god becomes powerless to them?

Not powerless at all. What makes you think that? If anything God used his power and knowledge to know what needed to be done in the long run to correct all that had happened in a just and legal way and in a way that if anyone, human or spirit creature ever decided to challenge God's right to rule ever again, then the president would have been proved and set that he does. Satan and his influance on man and mans greed to be seperate from God and rule themselves will never be allowed to happen again.

Originally posted by galveston75
Not powerless at all. What makes you think that? If anything God used his power and knowledge to know what needed to be done in the long run to correct all that had happened in a just and legal way and in a way that if anyone, human or spirit creature ever decided to challenge God's right to rule ever again, then the president would have been proved and ...[text shortened]... d mans greed to be seperate from God and rule themselves will never be allowed to happen again.

you say it was humanities decision to separate from god. as if god has no choice or say in the matter. if this is correct then humans have power over god, they dictate the cause and effect. if god does have a say in the matter then he is allowing humanity to create the conditions of - if you do A then B happens, or god has created the conditions of doing A means B will happen.

who is responsible for deciding that if you disobey god then god will not protect you?

why did god choose the plan you described to reunite man with god? you talk like it was the only option. surly to a god there are many options to resolving the situation. i can think of lots.

why put the apple there in the first place? why fill it with sin? why is the punishment so harsh? is all of the horrible things that have happened over they last several thousand years all because of one stupid moment?

a being with the power to create a universe being so petty over one mistake!
he created the devil, who has considerable power so much power that it was even a challenge for jesus not to be tempted and god expects to innocent humans who no nothing of sin yet are punished because they are tricked by super powerful being who knows how to lie and deceive.

i cant see a way in which gods actions are excusable.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
you say it was humanities decision to separate from god. as if god has no choice or say in the matter. if this is correct then humans have power over god, they dictate the cause and effect. if god does have a say in the matter then he is allowing humanity to create the conditions of - if you do A then B happens, or god has created the conditions of doin ...[text shortened]... being who knows how to lie and deceive.

i cant see a way in which gods actions are excusable.

Yes it was humans that decided to go against God and what he asked of them not to do.
But the point your not seeing and that is understandable as we tend to look at things from a humans standpoint and by no means do we see the big picture as only God can, is that God as our creator had every right to ask whatever he wanted to from us. All he asked was 1 simple thing and that was not to eat of that 1 tree among the millions of trees on this earth.
So if we think we know more then God and can do things better then he can or what he should have done then we are making the same mistake that Adam made.
He believed that Satan knew more then God and then in turn he believed he knew more then God.
As a result of us thinking we know more then God, we can now see the results of what man has done to man and how terrible life can be and is on this earth now.
And no man has any power over God on any level.
Also who are you or any other human with our little amount of knowledge able to question God and what he knows best for our future?
And finally God did not create the devil as we know him now. The Bible is very clear that he was described as a beautiful angel that God created with a high position at one time but he let the temptation of greed come over him and turned against God and then tricked Adam and Eve into turning against God. That in now way is God's fault.........

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes it was humans that decided to go against God and what he asked of them not to do.
But the point your not seeing and that is understandable as we tend to look at things from a humans standpoint and by no means do we see the big picture as only God can, is that God as our creator had every right to ask whatever he wanted to from us. All he asked was ...[text shortened]... and then tricked Adam and Eve into turning against God. That in now way is God's fault.........

so because we failed one thing we have got what we deserved? id hate to see how you treat your children if you think gods actions are just.

as far as im aware the big picture is for some people to live in jerusalem with god for eternity, ruling. funny that god has these somewhat limited human type thoughts about how he wants to spend his time. for somebody we cant understand he shows a lot of human characteristics.

who is god to punish me and other humans, what gives him the right. i will not take his abuse and be happy because while hes beating us hes telling us everything will be okay in the end.

god created everything, if he created the devil and the devil turned bad then god created the circumstances in which this could happen to the devil. god created the devils weakness to turn to dark thoughts.

its funny how god is thanked for all the good in the world but never blamed for the bad. its either both or neither.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so because we failed one thing we have got what we deserved? id hate to see how you treat your children if you think gods actions are just.

as far as im aware the big picture is for some people to live in jerusalem with god for eternity, ruling. funny that god has these somewhat limited human type thoughts about how he wants to spend his time. for s ...[text shortened]... thanked for all the good in the world but never blamed for the bad. its either both or neither.

Well you are more then welcome to have your viewpoint. I'm not being insulting to you but many humans have this same viewpoint, but your wrong. And you are putting the blame on the wrong being. This is exactly what Satan wants and that is to keep many like yourself alienated from God and learning about God and and becoming wise spiritually and understanding the big picture.