1. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86348
    27 May '14 01:503 edits
    Rom 8:30
    Eph 1:11

    I am currently one who holds to the absolute authority and sovereignty of God, meaning that I chose to accept the scriptures relating to predestination at face value. Many Christians here won't agree with this view, some extremely so as predestination seems to imply the exclusion of free will.

    I also hold to the strategy that in order to understand the truth of a matter of core doctrine one has to see that truth upheld throughout the bible. For example I reject the trinity fundamentally because the notion of three distinct people/personalities/persons/entities in one god is not sustained through the whole bible - you will have seen me write many times: "hear oh Israel The Lord your god is one" for example.

    Now with predestination, let's consider Noak's ark. God was very explicit with the dimensions of the ark, but why was it so small when there was many more people being preached to by Noah than could possibly fit within it? Is this an early example of predestination?

    Thoughts and opinions.
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148428
    27 May '14 01:59
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Rom 8:30
    Eph 1:11

    I am currently one who holds to the absolute authority and sovereignty of God, meaning that I chose to accept the scriptures relating to predestination at face value. Many Christians here won't agree with this view, some extremely so as predestination seems to imply the exclusion of free will.

    I also hold to the strategy that in ...[text shortened]... ld possibly fit within it? Is this an early example of predestination?

    Thoughts and opinions.
    I accept the absolute authority and sovereignty of God too, which pretty
    much means I don't worry about some of the little details we seem to fight
    over here. Such as predestination, if God gives us choice than we have a
    choice, does that mean we lose it if God can see the beginning and the end
    at the same time? If there is an issue there, I am willing to let God work
    it out it is His problem not mine.

    With respect to the Trinity I believe it, but it too is something I don't really
    care to debate. Reason being, God is God no matter what I think about Him
    He will be what He is if I understand Him or not.

    The Ark I believe in, take that for what its worth.
    Kelly
  3. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86348
    27 May '14 02:08
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    The Ark I believe in, take that for what its worth.
    Kelly
    What do you mean; you believe it existed?

    What about its size relative to all the people ignoring Noah?
  4. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
    Boston Lad
    USA
    Joined
    14 Jul '07
    Moves
    43012
    27 May '14 02:26
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Rom 8:30
    Eph 1:11

    I am currently one who holds to the absolute authority and sovereignty of God, meaning that I chose to accept the scriptures relating to predestination at face value. Many Christians here won't agree with this view, some extremely so as predestination seems to imply the exclusion of free will.

    I also hold to the strategy that in ...[text shortened]... ld possibly fit within it? Is this an early example of predestination?

    Thoughts and opinions.
    "God was very explicit with the dimensions of the ark..." Of course He was; if you were Omniscient God you'd be precise too. His plan is perfect. "predestination": He knew from eternity past who would believe in Christ for their eternal salvation and who wouldn't; those God foreknew He predestined to share the security and happiness of personal relationship with Him.
  5. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86348
    27 May '14 02:28
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    "God was very explicit with the dimensions of the ark..." Of course He was; if you were Omniscient God you'd be precise too. His plan is perfect. "predestination": He knew from eternity past who would believe in Christ for their eternal salvation and who wouldn't; those God foreknew He predestined to share the security and happiness of personal relationship with Him.
    Why do you think the ark was only big enough for a few people and yet Noah would gave been preaching to thousands - why would god make him do that?
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148428
    27 May '14 02:35
    Originally posted by divegeester
    What do you mean; you believe it existed?

    What about its size relative to all the people ignoring Noah?
    What about them? I told you I believe God gives us real choices, and He
    also sees the beginning from the end at the same time.
    Kelly
  7. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    27 May '14 02:40
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Why do you think the ark was only big enough for a few people and yet Noah would gave been preaching to thousands - why would god make him do that?
    Well, Christians may quibble the use of the word "genocide" ~ so replace it with mass murder or indiscriminate mass executions, if you want ~ but don't the calculated dimensions of the ark, supposedly determined by God [in the folk story you're talking about], strongly suggest that the killing of all humans, aside from Noah's family, was a calculated genocide with a calculated purpose?
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
    USA
    Joined
    24 May '04
    Moves
    148428
    27 May '14 02:441 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Well, Christians may quibble the use of the word "genocide" ~ so replace it with mass murder or indiscriminate mass executions, if you want ~ but don't the calculated dimensions of the ark, supposedly determined by God [in the folk story you're talking about], strongly suggest that the killing of all humans, aside from Noah's family, was a calculated genocide with a calculated purpose?
    God and genocide, I think is a worthless conversation since everyone's
    death and I do mean everyone's death comes down to God. If God does it
    one at a time, or in mass it is still God who sets up universe and
    all the laws within it.
    Kelly
  9. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    27 May '14 02:50
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    God and genocide, I think is a worthless conversation since everyone's
    death and I do mean everyone's death comes down to God. If God does it
    one at a time, or in mass it is still God who sets up universe and
    all the laws within it.
    Kelly
    Were the people deliberately killed by God using the flood or not?

    Can you not equally claim "everyone's death [came] down to God" in Rwanda [for example] and therefore it is a "worthless conversation" to talk of "genocide"?
  10. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86348
    27 May '14 03:001 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Were the people deliberately killed by God using the flood?
    It says so in the bible, it's very clear and there is no denying it. however any one of those people listening to Noah could have stepped onto the boat. They didn't need to do any good works, they didn't need to worry about being thrown off because they had the wrong doctrine or language and it was completely free. All they had to do was walk on the boat. But they all chose not to.
  11. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    27 May '14 03:031 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    It says so in the bible, it's very clear and there is no denying it. however any one of those people listening to Noah could have stepped onto the boat. They didn't need to do any good works, they didn't need to worry about being thrown off because they had the wrong doctrine or language and it was completely free. All they had to do was walk on the boat. But they all chose not to.
    Why should they have listened to Noah?

    Was that the best and fairest method of communication your God figure could use to warn people of his planned genocide?
  12. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86348
    27 May '14 03:13
    Originally posted by FMF
    Why should they have listened to Noah?

    Was that the best and fairest method of communication your God figure could use to warn people of his planned genocide?
    Well to be fair to god, the internet hadn't been invented. 😛
  13. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    27 May '14 03:21
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Well to be fair to god, the internet hadn't been invented. 😛
    Sure. But did that fact have your God figure ~ as portrayed in the mythology ~ stumped? The channel of communication that He used resulted in one man and his family surviving and the rest of humanity being killed/murdered? It sounds like the work of an Iron Age storyteller. It does not strike me as being a case of 'divinity in action' at all ~ more like the exploits of a man-made "baddie" character, except his followers think he's the opposite of a "baddie'.
  14. SubscriberFMF
    Main Poster
    This Thread
    Joined
    28 Oct '05
    Moves
    29835
    27 May '14 03:29
    Was the transgression that all of mankind was executed for their "sins", or was their transgression 'not listening to Noah'? Would the "sinful' have been allowed on Noah's ark if they had tried to board it [at Noah's urging]?
  15. Joined
    16 Feb '08
    Moves
    86348
    27 May '14 03:34
    Originally posted by FMF
    Sure. But did that fact have your God figure ~ as portrayed in the mythology ~ stumped? The channel of communication that He used resulted in one man and his family surviving and the rest of humanity being killed/murdered? It sounds like the work of an Iron Age storyteller. It does not strike me as being a case of 'divinity in action' at all ~ more like the expl ...[text shortened]... ts of a man-made "baddie" character, except his followers think he's the opposite of a "baddie'.
    I'm more interested in the predestination element of this debate.

    I've never hidden from the fact that as well as gods love there is judgement. I don't get frazzled by people calling "my god" a genocidal maniac or the like; it's his reputation to defend not mine, he can explain it when the time comes.
Back to Top