Predestination and Noah's ark

Originally posted by FMF
Would the "sinful' have been allowed on Noah's ark if they had tried to board it [at Noah's urging]?

Did you see my post to you previously where I addressed this?

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't get frazzled by people calling "my god" a genocidal maniac or the like; it's his reputation to defend not mine, he can explain it when the time comes.

It's more interesting to hear you defend it seeing as He most certainly is not here defending or explaining it. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
Did you see my post to you previously where I addressed this?

Yes, so, as you see it, the transgression [carrying the death sentence] was not taking Noah at his word when he claimed that God had spoken to him and was feeding him instructions?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm more interested in the predestination element of this debate.

I've never hidden from the fact that as well as gods love there is judgement. I don't get frazzled by people calling "my god" a genocidal maniac or the like; it's his reputation to defend not mine, he can explain it when the time comes.

It is my view that we have free will. However, God knows what it will be.

On the surface these seem contradictory positions, but I think it to be much more potentially complex than we allow ourselves to admit.

If God can do anything, he certainly can achieve this as well.


As for killing people. (shrug)

God is God. We can understand it, not understand it, disagree with it, turn blue in the face in protest, but at the end of the day he is God.

Originally posted by FMF
It's more interesting to hear you defend it seeing as He most certainly is not here defending or explaining it. 🙂

I can certainly understand the need to kill, especially if they are murders themselves.

Originally posted by whodey
I can certainly understand the need to kill, especially if they are murders themselves.

Whose need to kill?

Originally posted by FMF
Were the people deliberately killed by God using the flood or not?

Can you not equally claim "everyone's death [came] down to God" in Rwanda [for example] and therefore it is a "worthless conversation" to talk of "genocide"?

'27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,'

We are all destined to die, everyone of us without exception.
So again we are all going to die, without out exception, by design.
We can die in groups, or we one at a time, but nonetheless we will all die.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
'27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,'

We are all destined to die, everyone of us without exception.
So again we are all going to die, without out exception, by design.
We can die in groups, or we one at a time, but nonetheless we will all die.
Kelly

Are you suggesting that the genocide itself was not "judgement"?

Does the Biblical story even make any sense at all if the notion that the flood was a punishment is removed from it?

Originally posted by FMF
Are you suggesting that the genocide itself was not "judgement"?

Does the Biblical story even make any sense at all if the notion that the flood was a punishment is removed from it?

Nope, judgment is a part of it. Still, to single out punishment as some how
wrong for God to do dismisses all punishment for anyone to do in my
opinion. With God, He gives and takes away as He sees fit, so when He does
that unlike with just man He is in His right to do so, and we all die by
various means every day. None of us wake thinking this is the day we die,
but for some it is.
Kelly

People keep talking about Noah preaching to the lost. Reading Genesis, I see absolutely no mention of Noah preaching whatsoever.

It is quite clear from the story that God does not intend to save any human outside the family of Noah. There never is a chance to repent.

If someone can find the preaching part in some other biblical passage, then let's hear chapter and verse.

5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

13 And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. 15 And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 You shall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark—you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.”

22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.

That's the end of Chapter 6. In Ch 7, they load the ark with all occupants and the flooding begins. Nary a mention of any intercession of any kind on behalf of the damned.

Originally posted by divegeester
Rom 8:30
Eph 1:11

I am currently one who holds to the absolute authority and sovereignty of God, meaning that I chose to accept the scriptures relating to predestination at face value. Many Christians here won't agree with this view, some extremely so as predestination seems to imply the exclusion of free will.

I also hold to the strategy that in ...[text shortened]... ld possibly fit within it? Is this an early example of predestination?

Thoughts and opinions.

God's Patience Thread 156758 (dive, here's some background from an exchange which follows the OP on Page 1)

Originally posted by rwingett
"How patient was god during the Great Flood?"

"The Days of Noah "The fallen angels are a group of angels that fell from grace when they decided to leave the heavenly habitation and tried to interrupt or destroy God’s plan for this earth age. Some would have you believe that these "sons of God" in Genesis 6 were the sons of Seth. The Word does not support that view. We will study this topic and determine what God’s word says about it. Turn to Matthew 24 where Christ speaks of Noah’s flood."

Matt 24:38 "For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark..." Do you know who they were marrying and giving in marriage to? It was the fallen angels or Nephilim. Matt 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. The flood of these end times are the flood of lies Satan will pour from his mouth when he appears as false messiah." (Rev. 12:15). Many shall be deceived by him. Now, let’s cover the afore mentioned events back in Genesis 6. Here we will discover just exactly what occurred before the flood of Noah."

Gen 6:1-2 "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose." These "sons of God" were not flesh men. These were angelic beings. The phrase "sons of God" in every occurrence in the Old Testament can only mean angels and should not be taken in any other sense. This was an attempt by Satan to corrupt the lineage through which Christ would come.

Gen 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." The word "giants" comes from the Hebrew prime "napha" which means to fall. Hence Nephilim, meaning "the fallen ones" or fallen angels. These Nephilim cohabitated with the daughters of Adam. Their offspring were gibbor and were known for their ungodliness. I would like to touch on few more verses.

Gen 6:8-9 "8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."The word "perfect" in verse 9 is the Hebrew word tamiym (taw-meem&lsquo😉 and is a technical word for animal sacrifices. It means without blemish. Not in a moral sense but ancestral or pedigree sense of the word. Meaning Noah and his family did not mix with these Nehpilim. That is why Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. The flood came about to destroy the Nephilim’s offspring. They were an abomination and against God’s plan." Written by Phil Najera http://www.theseason.org/thetrueshepherd/study5text.htm

Note: rwingett, God's Patience functions within the Justice and Righteousness (Integrity) Parameters of His Divine Plan.

Originally posted by whodey
As for killing people. (shrug) God is God. We can understand it, not understand it, disagree with it, turn blue in the face in protest, but at the end of the day he is God.

I don't really see how this pro forma defence of genocide really makes the Christian case.

Originally posted by whodey
As for killing people. (shrug)

Statements like this exemplify the moral superiority of religious people over us bass-ackwards heathens. 🙄

Perhaps, a better way to confront this point is - why do we stop caring about people dying when God's doing the killing?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Nope, judgment is a part of it. Still, to single out punishment as some how wrong for God to do dismisses all punishment for anyone to do in my
opinion. With God, He gives and takes away as He sees fit, so when He does
that unlike with just man He is in His right to do so, and we all die by
various means every day. None of us wake thinking this is the day we die,
but for some it is.

Noah's family aside, why were innocent humans being punished ~ executed ~ in this way? If you can't answer, then what is the moral of the story?

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you think the ark was only big enough for a few people and yet Noah would gave been preaching to thousands - why would god make him do that?

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you think the ark was only big enough for a few people and yet Noah would gave been preaching to thousands - why would god make him do that?

God's omniscience knew precisely the number of rooms and decks (window and door) required for the people and animals to be spared consistent with the purpose of His Plan to restore the human race following the elimination of the Nephilim.

Genesis 6:13-22 New American Standard Bible "13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall [a]cover it inside and out with pitch. 15 This is how you shall make it: the length of the ark three hundred [b]cubits, its breadth fifty [c]cubits, and its height thirty [d]cubits. 16 You shall make a [e]window for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from [f]the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17 Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, and of the animals after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 As for you, take for yourself some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them.” 22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God had commanded him, so he did."

Footnotes: a.Genesis 6:14 Or pitch; b.Genesis 6:15 I.e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.; c.Genesis 6:15 I.; d. One cubit equals approx 18 in. Genesis 6:15 I.; e. One cubit equals approx 18 in.; e.Genesis 6:16 Or roof; Genesis 6:16 Lit above;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6%3A13-22&version=NASB