03 Jun 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerthe door is possibly self-consistent, but i don't buy it.
Someone once explained it like this. You see a door in front of you. On the door is written: "All are welcome". You enter the door. On the back of the door that you have entered it is written: "You have been chosen."
Any thoughts?
either:
-we don't have free will, in which case the sign "all are welcome" is presumably false and at best completely pointless.
or
-we have free will not of a compatibilist variety, in which case the sign "you have been chosen" is false.
or
-we have free will of a compatibilist variety, in which case the back of the door can read one of two phrases: either "you have been chosen" or something like "hey, buddy, congratulations, well done!". if it reads the former, that would only tell me something about the pride of god.
in short, the door is self-consistent only if we have free will of a compatibilist variety. that's fine, as long as you are willing to concede that god creates some people knowing in advance that they have absolutely no chance of ever avoiding hell. why would he do that?
03 Jun 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloDo you have a good reference to on "compatibilist free-will" that expains the concept?
the door is possibly self-consistent, but i don't buy it.
either:
-we don't have free will, in which case the sign "all are welcome" is presumably false and at best completely pointless.
or
-we have free will not of a compatibilist variety, in which case the sign "you have been chosen" is false.
or
-we have free will of a compatib ...[text shortened]... ing in advance that they have absolutely no chance of ever avoiding hell. why would he do that?
03 Jun 05
1 edit
Originally posted by Colettii think these are reasonable notes on free will and it has a link to compatibilism:
Do you have a good reference to on "compatibilist free-will" that expains the concept?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
compatibilism basically says that free will and determinism are compatible with each other and can co-exist. that's basically how i see the door dj2 is referring to: the "all are welcome" refers to free will, and the "you have been chosen" refers to determinism. so in my mind the door is a metaphor for compatibilist free will.
maybe i am reading too much into it. i suppose that the "all are welcome" would not actually necessitate free will: i guess it could be referring to the case where we don't always have the ability to do the right thing, but everyone has the ability to accept or reject christ? even in that case, for the door to be self-consistent, it would have to be predetermined whether or not you choose to accept christ. you would still have to concede that god creates some people knowing that they stand no chance of avoiding hell.
so i think that if you say the door is self-consistent, then you are also implicitly ascribing to a sort of 'callousness of god' argument. that argument to me makes no sense.
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03 Jun 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloHow do you then explain this verse:
i think these are reasonable notes on free will and it has a link to compatibilism:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
compatibilism basically says that free will and determinism are compatible with each other and can co-exist. that's basically how i see the door dj2 is referring to: the "all are welcome" refers to free will, and the " ...[text shortened]... y ascribing to a sort of 'callousness of god' argument. that argument to me makes no sense.
Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
As I see it you have the free-will to chose life and the free-will to choose death. Take for this as an example: You are on a boat. The boat starts sinking. You have the free-will to chose to jump onto the life-boat or to chose not to jump onto the life-boat and drown. How is this example not compatible to free-will?
03 Jun 05
Originally posted by LemonJelloA few things are said about that choice, one is that all are welcome
i think these are reasonable notes on free will and it has a link to compatibilism:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
compatibilism basically says that free will and determinism are compatible with each other and can co-exist. that's basically how i see the door dj2 is referring to: the "all are welcome" refers to free will, and the " ...[text shortened]... y ascribing to a sort of 'callousness of god' argument. that argument to me makes no sense.
the other is who so ever wills may enter, the choice is yours and if
you have a choice to make, how you make it draws the line, not
what another wants, or tells you.
Kelly
03 Jun 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerFirst, Bible passages do not offer proof. If you insist, I would explain it by saying some time in the past someone wrote tose words down. Whoopie.
How do you then explain this verse:
Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
As I see it you have the free-will to chose life and the free-will to choose death. Take for this as an example: You are on a boat. The boat starts sinking. You have the free-will to chose to ...[text shortened]... chose not to jump onto the life-boat and drown. How is this example not compatible to free-will?
As to the man on the sinking boat, there must certainly be a miriad of elements that are not being considered in your example, things that often "help" a person make a decision. Does the man have a family? Does he have money? Can he swim? Does he have a chemical imbalence causing depression and suicidal thoughts? Is he on drugs? Should he be on drugs? Is he afraid of water? Et cetera.
Any one of these things, and more, could effect the situation and not a single one of them is created or controlled by free will, instead is the power of outside agents upon any individual. A ball will not roll by itself.
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03 Jun 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulA ball will not roll by itself but a man can get out of bed if he wants
First, Bible passages do not offer proof. If you insist, I would explain it by saying some time in the past someone wrote tose words down. Whoopie.
As to the man on the sinking boat, there must certainly be a miriad of elements that are not being considered in your example, things that often "help" a person make a decision. Does the man have a f ...[text shortened]... the power of outside agents upon any individual. A ball will not roll by itself.
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to.
Kelly
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03 Jun 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulPlease refer to Kelly's post. I think it answers your question.
First, Bible passages do not offer proof. If you insist, I would explain it by saying some time in the past someone wrote tose words down. Whoopie.
As to the man on the sinking boat, there must certainly be a miriad of elements that are not being considered in your example, things that often "help" a person make a decision. Does the man have a f ...[text shortened]... the power of outside agents upon any individual. A ball will not roll by itself.
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The point is actually that no matter what the circumstances are, you still make the choice yourself, nobody makes the choice for you.
03 Jun 05
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you say. But I say the man will get out of bed only if he has a reason to do so, e.g.: he is not tired, he has to go to work, he is cramping up, he is hungary, he got scared by who he woke up next to. In other words, he is being "pushed" by something, just like a ball.
A ball will not roll by itself but a man can get out of bed if he wants
to.
Kelly
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03 Jun 05
Originally posted by thesonofsaulSo basically you are saying that free-will does not exist? When would you do something with your own free-will if there was no need to do so?
So you say. But I say the man will get out of bed only if he has a reason to do so, e.g.: he is not tired, he has to go to work, he is cramping up, he is hungary, he got scared by who he woke up next to. In other words, he is being "pushed" by something, just like a ball.
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