Predestination

Originally posted by LemonJello
What makes you think that God decides before hand that you will go to Heaven or Hell?

nothing. what makes you think god even exists?

He might know before hand what you will choose in the end because He is omniscient. Becaus ...[text shortened]... t "you have been chosen" is false whether you realize it or not.

nothing. what makes you think god even exists?

What makes you think that he doesn't exist?

how is my point evading your grasp? if he knows beforehand what you will choose, and if you choose not accept christ, then he knows that beforehand.

What makes you think that his pre-knowledge about your choice affects your choice? Please answer this question: What makes you think that your choice does not determine your choice? In other words, how does God's pre-knowledge of the result of your choice affect your choice? Why is it not the relsult of your choice that affects God's knowledge of your choice?

then this pre-determinism is inconsistent with the bible verse you quoted.

How so?

if you adopt the verse, then you need to reject the determinism part. to say that he knows beforehand that you will choose the wrong thing, and then to say he still wants you to choose the right thing is ridiculous. how dumb would god be to adopt that stance?

I can't see why it would be ridiculous for an all-knowing God to know beforehand who would use their "free-will" to chose Him, and who would use their "free-will" to reject Him.

Originally posted by LemonJello
i am just having a really hard time understanding your stance properly.

you say that it is your free will, and your choice alone that determines whether you get to heaven. (paraphrasing here).

i interpret that to mean that you are rejecting determinism. in that case, you are saying that you were, in fact, not chosen to go to heaven.

if you are i ...[text shortened]... eriminism can hold), then please state that. otherwise, your position makes little sense to me.

Yes, I believe God has the ability and power and has used that to give
us the ability to choose as we will. That does not void anything about
God as far as what God can know, and what God can do. I believe I
have stated the rest alreadly when it comes to this subject.
Kelly

Originally posted by dj2becker
nothing. what makes you think god even exists?

What makes you think that he doesn't exist?

how is my point evading your grasp? if he knows beforehand what you will choose, and if you choose not accept christ, then he knows that beforehand.

What makes you think that his pre-knowledge about your choice affects your choice? Please answe ...[text shortened]... who would use their "free-will" to chose Him, and who would use their "free-will" to reject Him.

What makes you think that he doesn't exist?

is this the old 'i'm rubber, you're glue' routine?

Please answer this question: What makes you think that your choice does not determine your choice? In other words, how does God's pre-knowledge of the result of your choice affect your choice? Why is it not the relsult of your choice that affects God's knowledge of your choice?

this is what i am trying to say in regards to the verse you posted earlier:

the verse you posted says that it is not god's will for any of his subjects to perish (paraphrasing). so, in other words, god doesn't want to see his people go to hell. if he has advanced knowledge that, for example, i am going to go to hell because i will refuse to accept christ, then by creating me and putting me in the world, he has created someone that he knows will go to hell. this goes against his will, as outlined in your verse. then, you either need to adopt some 'callouness of god' view, or you need to adopt the view that it is not pre-determined that i go to hell, or simply say that god is not omniscient.

but i think it is ridiculous to claim that god knows your fate to perish, and yet still puts you in the world because he hopes you will choose otherwise -- the callousness of god is demonstrated in this action if that is the way it works.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You must have a life that sucks, you have no will to do what you want
simply because you want to do it? You have to forced, or have some
strong desire through need to act just to get out of bed. I think your
argument stinks and shows a little life on your part if you are painting
all you do because you have to do it.
Kelly

My life is beautiful. I am only arguing for the possibility that it is not my fault that my life is beautiful. I understand why you want you version of free will to exist. Without it not only does identity but perhaps moral responsibility goes out the window as well. For this very reason I can never honestly say that there is no free will: the idea of individuality and moral responsibility is hardwired into me. However, things aren't necessarily true just because we percieve them to be that way, or because that state of being brings us peace with the world and God. Things are as they are, and any true thinker has to aknowledge the possibility that we are all slaves to causality.

... --- ...

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, I believe God has the ability and power and has used that to give
us the ability to choose as we will. That does not void anything about
God as far as what God can know, and what God can do. I believe I
have stated the rest alreadly when it comes to this subject.
Kelly

so then i interpret your stance to be that you think the sign "all are welcome" is true, and the sign "you have been chosen" may or may not be true -- you're not sure.

do you agree?

Originally posted by LemonJello
What makes you think that he doesn't exist?

is this the old 'i'm rubber, you're glue' routine?

Please answer this question: What makes you think that your choice does not determine your choice? In other words, how does ...[text shortened]... of god is demonstrated in this action if that is the way it works.

so, in other words, god doesn't want to see his people go to hell. if he has advanced knowledge that, for example, i am going to go to hell because i will refuse to accept christ, then by creating me and putting me in the world, he has created someone that he knows will go to hell.

What makes you think that his pre-knowledge about your choice affects your choice?

this goes against his will, as outlined in your verse. then, you either need to adopt some 'callouness of god' view, or you need to adopt the view that it is not pre-determined that i go to hell, or simply say that god is not omniscient.

It does go against His will for you not to perish, but it does not go against your free-will to choose. In this case He has given your choice priority, because it is against His nature to force you into doing anything during the time-period that He has given you free-will. I still don't know if you will be able to grasp this. But then of course there are somethings that we will only understand when we get to Heaven.

Originally posted by dj2becker

What makes you think that his pre-knowledge about your choice affects your choice?

what makes you think this is my stance? if he knows your choice, then he knows your choice -- it doesn't matter whether it affects your choice or not in regards to the verse you posted. it seems that you are trying to argue for compatibilist free will. fair enough. then just say so and stop being ambiguous. it still won't clear up the inconsistencies with the verse you posted, but at least i will be clear on what you are actually arguing. just answer this: do you think the door is self consistent? if so, then we can proceed discussing the verse you posted.

But then of course there are somethings that we will only understand when we get to Heaven.

are you saying there are some things that only saved people know, or are you saying that some things are unknown to all until you reach heaven?

Originally posted by LemonJello
so then i interpret your stance to be that you think the sign "all are welcome" is true, and the sign "you have been chosen" may or may not be true -- you're not sure.

do you agree?

You may interpet it any way you want. I've made my points clear
enough.
Kelly

Originally posted by thesonofsaul
First, Bible passages do not offer proof. If you insist, I would explain it by saying some time in the past someone wrote tose words down. Whoopie.....

If the issue is the "Doctrine of Predestination" - which is a Christian doctrine, I insist that if it's not proved by the Bible, it is not proven at all. The whole point of any debate on Christian doctrine should start with the criteria that it must first and foremost be Biblical.

Originally posted by LemonJello


but i think it is ridiculous to claim that god knows your fate to perish, and yet still puts you in the world because he hopes you will choose otherwise -- the callousness of god is demonstrated in this action if that is the way it works.

I still think the doctor is a liar.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You may interpet it any way you want. I've made my points clear
enough.
Kelly

ok. i hope i haven't offended you, and i hope you will debate me again in the future.

i give lectures often, and i find that sometimes i give lectures that i think go swimmingly only to find out that no one in the audience had any idea what i was saying. admittedly, i don't always state my arguments clearly.

Originally posted by Coletti
If the issue is the "Doctrine of Predestination" - which is a Christian doctrine, I insist that if it's not proved by the Bible, it is not proven at all. The whole point of any debate on Christian doctrine should start with the criteria that it must first and foremost be Biblical.

Are you agreeing with me that Christians are Bible worshippers?

Originally posted by mantawa
I still think the doctor is a liar.

it may be a case of lying.

i still think the door can be self-consistent, but only if we make some specific assumptions about the compatibility of free will and determinism.

Originally posted by LemonJello
it may be a case of lying.

i still think the door can be self-consistent, but only if we make some specific assumptions about the compatibility of free will and determinism.

It always comes down to which assumptions we can live with, doesn't it?

Originally posted by thesonofsaul
It always comes down to which assumptions we can live with, doesn't it?

probably. but most people think that some assumptions are just plain wrong.

sometimes i wonder what Occam's razor would say about faith in general.